It's not ready to replace Windows yet

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Husse
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Husse »

@ Fred LOL
It's not the 15235 posts this one included - it's the fact that this topic is five pages :)
And i got p-ssed of this time too :)
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cebalrai
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by cebalrai »

My experience with Linux has been kind of unfortunate. About once per year I try it out, only to be frustrated by hardware that I can't get the OS to use correctly. Last year I was here trying to get help for monitor support (NEC FP955). After trying about 20 different things that nice, friendly people suggested, I gave up. None of them worked. I spent probably 8-10 hours on the thing before giving up. People that were helping me finally suggested emailing the devs to request that they officially support my monitor in the next release, but it didn't happen. :(

So here I am back a year later with a different computer, this time a Dell E1505 laptop. I cannot get the wireless connection to work after spending about three hours scanning forums all over the web for suggestions. Most of the time when I find a thread with possible solutions I'm too Linux illiterate to even understand how to actually do what they're suggesting.

Linux always looks so cool and I wish I could use it. And I always think that since I've got plenty of skill in Windows and access to Linux forums that I should be able to do some basic troubleshooting. But I can't...
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by kei84 »

Although Linux and Windows are both OS, you could say they are two completely different things. They both have advantages and disadvantages.

I don't think Windows is easier than Linux. Try formating Windows for example or using a firewall and antivirus.
What made me replace Windows for Linux was "control". Have you ever tried to remove Windows Media Player? It's my computer so I want to install and uninstall any program. The first time you install Windows it takes about 10 GB of your hd but 1 month later it's taking 30 GB. confused!?
In Linux you know in which folder you'll find what you want and it doesn't happen in Windows.

I am a designer and I use only opensource softwares to make all my projects especially Gimp, Krita and Inkscape. Somebody said in one of the posts that Photoshop it's not worth $ 200,00 and it's true. If it was $ 50,00 I would consider buying it but never for $ 200,00
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Husse »

@ cebalrai
Have you ever installed Windows from the ground - not some Dell special disk
I have - so many times that I don't really remember how many (Win98 and XP not Vista)
I tell you there are as many problems as you find when installing Linux but the normal computer user never installs Windows from the ground up - it's already installed with all the right drivers and tweaks for the hardware in place
Problems that you have to straighten out yourself when you install Linux
Post in the wifi section of the forum and include which version of Mint you use and the result of the command lspci in the terminal (l is a lower case L)
Someone - perhaps me - will help you, wifi has been much easier to get working
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cebalrai
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by cebalrai »

Yes I have built about a dozen computers and installed OEM versions of Windows on them. I've never had any problems at all, at least not ones that I couldn't fix easily. With Linux I consistently have problems with it not recognizing certain hardware. I find that the GUI in Windows is much easier to use for troubleshooting than having to type in all sorts of things in the Linux terminal.

Of course if I knew the language of Linux then it would probably be a lot easier. So the problem isn't necessarily Linux - but more that I simply have no idea how to use it. Learning Linux terminal commands is fairly difficult for the average person, and virtually impossible for many casual computer users.

I was able to basically teach myself the Windows interface by exploring the GUI. In Linux I apparently have to learn a whole new language from scratch. Having to learn all sorts of foreign commands and stuff for the terminal is a daunting task for a lot of people, including those with a fair amount of experience on computers.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by almigi »

How someone experiences GNU/Linux can very greatly per person and per distro. That's why it's entertaining when I see heated debates about Windows vs Linux. For me, Linux has always been a pleasure to use. However, I have hardware that is somewhat modern, an cable Internet connection with the cable modem connected to my computer (no wireless issues), and I stick with distros where ease of use is a priority.

What I like about Linux is the "culture" of respecting that you know what you want on your computer. For example, on my computer, which came with Windows Vista pre-installed. When I fired up Internet Explorer for the first time, I saw that the Yahoo toolbar was preinstalled. Internet Explorer has a search tool also which is similiar to the one in Firefox. I changed my default search engine from Yahoo to Google. What did I get? I got a pop up that warned me that I made a change to my browser's configuration, and it asked me if I wanted to "fix" it (i.e. go back to the default). That irritated me. I didn't break anything. Don't ask me if I want to fix it.

Also, I have a HP Deskjet printer. When I want to install the printer under Vista, I have to insert the CD-ROM that came with the printer. This installs the driver, and then runs an installer program. The installer program (if I chose the "easy (recommended)" option) installs a bunch of extra programs on my computer and makes me reset. The total process takes about 10 min.

With Linux, I just leave the printer turned on when I install a distro. Most distros detect my printer, and sure enough I have a working HP Deskjet printer after installation (or even on the LiveCD).

Just some of my thoughts...
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by kansasnoob »

After about 1 1/2 years I can't imagine going back to Windows for surfing the net!

But I'm still multi-booting! Sometimes I need Windows & Gates, because others refuse to play unless you have it!

I'm currently running Win XP + Ubuntu 8.04.2 + Ubuntu 9.04 + Mint Gloria, and from time to time I need them all!
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by kei84 »

Change an configuration or uninstall a default program is a big problem in Windows.

In most cases, installing a printer or another device is easier in Linux. You don"t have to insert a CD or reboot your system.

And the command line is a little harder because most users are now used to only using mouse in Windows. Let's face it, average users use keybord only for sending e-mails or chating most of the time. Sometimes you have to open prompt in Windows to solve an issue and they don't know what to do. It didn't happen when we had Windows 3.1
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Seventh Reign »

I could not disagree with this 'rant' more. Linux is faster, easier to use, more stable, more customizable, uses less system resources, FREE, and is just better than Windows in every way except one. If you are a Die-Hard PC gamer that is the ONLY problem Linux has. And I believe that issue will be moot in less than 2 years time. Linux has advanced more in the past 2 years alone than Windows has from Win95 to 7.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Fred »

This thread and threads like it are pretty much worthless. They are basically irrational rants. Well... wait a minute. That isn't completely true. I guess there is individual therapeutic value in verbalizing your frustrations. A stress reliever one might say. So I guess the opening sentence isn't entirely correct. In all honesty, as many of you know, I take the bait occasionally too and respond to the nonsense, just like many others. But when you actually step back and look at it, it is like two people arguing different topics together. One putting forth that the earth is flat and the other being adamant that the coffee bean crop in Brazil is going to be great this year! Trying to figure out the connection just makes my head hurt.

Let's take the topic. "It's not ready to replace Windows yet." If there was ever a false premise, this has got to be it. It's implied that that is a Linux goal. Wrong! It isn't, and never was intended to replace Windows, at least not by the people that count.

In order to be competitive with, or be a viable replacement for, Windows for the masses, there would have to be a whole different culture and infrastructure in place. None of the key groups actually responsible have ever even tried to put the appropriate infrastructure in place. Apparently the people that count don't give a fat happy about Linux being ready to replace Windows. :-)

What would it take? I'll list a few.

1) Fixed APIs. Not there for the kernel, tool chain, DEs, or X Window system.

2) Fixed and consistent file system infrastructure. Not there.

3) Fixed availability of specific tools and libraries. Nope.

These three things mean, no backward compatibility and no stable base for software vendors to build on. There goes your commercial software offerings. They would/will never be able to justify expending the resources necessary to keep up, even if they could.

As far as open source software, most projects can and do keep up but their offerings never have a chance to mature and stabilize the way Windows or Mac software does. Besides, they are usually moving at warp speed too.

4) Consistent feature set and look and feel over time. Again, not there.

Joe Six Pack takes at least 4 months to find the "Shut Down" button in the "Start Menu"! Most Linux aggregaters update the entire distribution, including the user software, every 6 months to a year. That is completely irrational if you are catering to the mass market. Your average Windows user isn't even used to the wallpaper yet, let alone mastered the system well enough to make it function without making his head hurt.

Just look at Windows XP. It has been around now for what, 8 years, more or less? And it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The standard to be compared to, met, and surpassed for success in the mass market. That is what the average user has finally become use to so that is what they want.

I say, let them have it. You see, I don't give a fat happy if Linux is ready to replace Windows yet either. The price is too high. The rewards too few. :-)

Fred
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by cebalrai »

kei84 wrote:Change an configuration or uninstall a default program is a big problem in Windows.

In most cases, installing a printer or another device is easier in Linux. You don"t have to insert a CD or reboot your system.

And the command line is a little harder because most users are now used to only using mouse in Windows. Let's face it, average users use keybord only for sending e-mails or chating most of the time. Sometimes you have to open prompt in Windows to solve an issue and they don't know what to do. It didn't happen when we had Windows 3.1
What if I installed Mint while my Cannon printer wasn't connected? All I have is the driver with the Windows drivers (and crapware) on it. Will it auto detect?
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Lantesh »

Fred wrote:I say, let them have it. You see, I don't give a fat happy if Linux is ready to replace Windows yet either. The price is too high. The rewards too few. :-)

Fred
I'd like to see Linux capture about 8% to 10% of the desktop market, and then flat line. That may be just enough for the hardware vendors to give us better support, but not quite enough to make us an attractive target for malware and virus's. Windows can have the mass market. We don't need it.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by emorrp1 »

Lantesh wrote:I'd like to see Linux capture about 8% to 10% of the desktop market, and then flat line. That may be just enough for the hardware vendors to give us better support, but not quite enough to make us an attractive target for malware and virus's. Windows can have the mass market. We don't need it.
If we were on slashdot right now, I'd mark that up as "Insightful"! I'd also add that that wouldn't make us as susceptible to social engineering, which is the unstoppable method of malware distribution.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Husse »

What if I installed Mint while my Cannon printer wasn't connected?
The first time it is connected it will be detected and a driver installed
For some printers - like my Brother DCP7010 - that driver is no good so I have to take a few steps extra but it's still easier than in Windows
I suddenly remember that it took some 20 minutes to install it in Win XP and not much else could be done in that time....
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by markcynt »

Fred wrote:Let's take the topic. "It's not ready to replace Windows yet." If there was ever a false premise, this has got to be it. It's implied that that is a Linux goal. Wrong! It isn't, and never was intended to replace Windows, at least not by the people that count.Fred
I'm not sure if this is an official Ubuntu position but according to this site it's an Ubuntu goal.

http://ubuntuindex.com/website/what-is-ubuntu/
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Fred »

markcynt wrote:
I'm not sure if this is an official Ubuntu position but according to this site it's an Ubuntu goal. (referring to Linux having the goal to replace Windows for the masses)
It doesn't matter what Ubuntu wants anymore than it matters what the thread starter wants. What vital Linux infrastructure do they code and maintain? None! All they do is take packages that Debian has already done the heavy lifting on and glue them together to make a finished distribution. Ubuntu is just an aggregater. As all the other distro providers are. I don't mean to belittle that function. It is an important one. But it doesn't put them in a position to have much input into the underlying Linux infrastructure. As I said, the ones that count don't, and haven't had the goal of providing a mass market competitor for Windows. There certainly isn't any evidence of that being a goal in the Linux infrastructure. I don't see or hear about anybody in the core development communities pushing for fixed APIs or other necessary infrastructure changes. Do you?

I suspect the truth of the matter is that no one that counts really wants all the problems and hassles that the Joe Six pack masses will bring with them. The masses are only good for commercial companies trying to make money off them. Since Linux by its' very nature isn't structured as a commercial entity, who needs them?

Linux is growing all the time. It hasn't stopped since it all began. There are enough people coming to Linux that value the freedoms, choices, and learning opportunities of a non-commercial, not centrally controlled but distributed system. Linux won't die but will continue to grow.

We don't need to hobble Linux's development, dumb it down, or sacrifice our core beliefs for the masses. Why on earth would anybody want to do that, other than a commercial company trying to make money from the masses?

Fred
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Fred »

I apologize for bringing this thread back to life, but I ran across a very entertaining post that really captures a lot of the truth in this question. :-)

http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php ... &tb=1&pb=1

Enjoy life, it is too short to do otherwise. :-)

Fred
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by markcynt »

Fred wrote:markcynt wrote:
I'm not sure if this is an official Ubuntu position but according to this site it's an Ubuntu goal. (referring to Linux having the goal to replace Windows for the masses)
It doesn't matter what Ubuntu wants anymore than it matters what the thread starter wants. What vital Linux infrastructure do they code and maintain? None! All they do is take packages that Debian has already done the heavy lifting on and glue them together to make a finished distribution. Ubuntu is just an aggregater. As all the other distro providers are. I don't mean to belittle that function. It is an important one. But it doesn't put them in a position to have much input into the underlying Linux infrastructure. As I said, the ones that count don't, and haven't had the goal of providing a mass market competitor for Windows. There certainly isn't any evidence of that being a goal in the Linux infrastructure. I don't see or hear about anybody in the core development communities pushing for fixed APIs or other necessary infrastructure changes. Do you?

I suspect the truth of the matter is that no one that counts really wants all the problems and hassles that the Joe Six pack masses will bring with them. The masses are only good for commercial companies trying to make money off them. Since Linux by its' very nature isn't structured as a commercial entity, who needs them?

Linux is growing all the time. It hasn't stopped since it all began. There are enough people coming to Linux that value the freedoms, choices, and learning opportunities of a non-commercial, not centrally controlled but distributed system. Linux won't die but will continue to grow.

We don't need to hobble Linux's development, dumb it down, or sacrifice our core beliefs for the masses. Why on earth would anybody want to do that, other than a commercial company trying to make money from the masses?

Fred
I didn't mean anything by that. I was actually surprised when I read that myself. I didn't go looking for it. I found it by accident.

I love Linux, but I also remember having the same position as the OP, misguided as it is, concerning Linux as a whole. But I did keep my opinion to myself.

Linux isn't going anywhere. It's only going to become more popular as more people come to realize the freedom Linux brings. As far as I'm concerned if you like Linux, that's great, and welcome to the family. If you don't think Linux is up to Windows standards, that's great too. Just quit complaining and leave quietly.

Mark
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by emorrp1 »

well the closest thing I think he is referring to is Bug #1 - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1

p.s. ty Fred, that's an amusing post
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Da Londo »

Hi all, I've been using Linux Mint now for a few months, started with 6 32bit over 6 64bit and currently on 7 32bit awaiting the 64bit, for me it has replaced Win completly except for games, I had been using Win for more than 15 years, starting in high school when we fiddled e bit with 3.11 before going to 95, win was nice, but understanding the file system back then was harder then it is now with Linux, I had always been a bit afraid of Linux, years ago friends of mine fiddled with Red Hat things and that didn't really work out, the thing that made me try Linux is the fact that I only had an official copy of XP because it came with a laptop I bought secondhand, I would never give money for an OS, nor for simple programs or virusscanners, specialized soft that you need for work, school, etc, that I too would pay for, I installed last year open office on XP and that made me think again of Linux, I installed Ubuntu and didn't like it, a friend of me ran Mint so I tested and was amazed, started out with the basic mistakes like partitioning but I keep on improving myself and my system, with win I kinda had the attitude of don't go fix things that aren't broken (hiding me from the truth that most things were broken in win in time) because than I would have to deal with re-installing win and searching trough piles of cd's to get some drivers wich then would need to be updated again etc, it went from a clean install with no hickups that took 30min (idd, 30min for a win install, happened only once) to an install that took me several hours spread over 2 days to get the thing working again, still don't know why this was, know I am deleting, creating, moving partions, without a drop of sweat, knowing I backed up all important stuff on an ext HDD, installing Mint taking me 15mins only, once I have my partitions set up the way I like and with a lot of advise I read on this forum I don't even have to back up all stuff but I still will, I even convinced a friend of mine which is a hardcore gamer too try Mint, and he likes it, he won't be deleting his win partition, nor will I for the time being, but having win around for gaming to me is like having a PlayStation around, anyway, I don't know how things are in school these days but I do know that change can start there, we were a windows using school but it could have been Mac also, many schools are in need of money these days so they may try open source software, I was unemployed at the time I installed Mint but am working in a Call center know for a while where to my surprise open office is used, on the other hand they run Vista too.

I am truely sorry if my post is a bit incoherent but I was typing it between calls.

My conclusion is, as some allready stated, Mint is ready to replace win for a lot of people, not for everyone, but since this is not the goal it doesn't matter, more and more people will search for alternatives, we have right to choose and now lots will have the means too.

Greetings,
Jim
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