It's not ready to replace Windows yet

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FedoraRefugee
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by FedoraRefugee »

illicitfatwa,

There is a lot of truth in what you posted. I agree with most of it. What I do not agree with is my perception of your overall perspective that Linux is more difficult than Windows. It is not, it is far easier. Try setting up grandma, who has never used a computer before, or your five year old kid, on Linux. You will see that they will grasp things faster. Now, you cannot expect these folks to properly administer a Linux system, but by the same token they cannot administer a Windows system either.

Case in point is my father in law. He is an intelligent guy but is very hard headed. He uses XP. I would not try to even approach him with Linux for the reasons you mention. But how does he do with XP? For starters, he refused to get an optical drive with his system, he feels he does not need it. He downloads games. I have even offered to give him a DVD-RW installed, free of charge. No dice. Okay, so he downloads games and installs them. But he will install these games everywhere on his system. I mean, he has games in my documents, in windows files, inside other program files...everywhere. I once looked at his computer for him as it was acting crazy. This is the first thing I noticed and I asked him about it. He says he usually lets the installer install where it wants unless it wants to install in program files. Huh? Yeah, see, windows XP has the default warning to not mess with program files as this may damage your system! So I tell him that programs are supposed to be installed in program files. Blaspheme he screams! Er, okay...Well Rex, I think part of the problem is all these files, but how are you on spyware? Do you have an anti-malware program? Huh, he asks? Deep breath...Rex, you probably have a ton of spyware, can I download Spybot S&D for you? Well, I dont know, I dont want you to mess up my computer...Rex, your computer is ALREADY messed up! You get the idea...In the end he will take the computer in to "the man" who will charge him $80 or $100 to reinstall XP. This has happened religiously 2-3 times a year for the last 8 years. Same computer. Rex's old CRT is going bad, it has a funky green tint. I say Rex, I have a 21 inch CRT just laying around that you can have, free. Well...I dont know, will a different CRT mess up my computer? I dont think so, this one is okay, I dont mind the green tint...

I ask you, is Windows making things any easier for this guy than Linux would? Granted he is on the lower end of the computer illiterate bell curve, but the only reason windows is easier for the average American is that is what they have used all their life. I will regale you with another story:

I have 5 kids. The oldest is now out of the house, the next in line is 17. I also have a 14 year old, a 7 year old, all boys, and a 4 year old daughter. The oldest boy was 11 or so just as I was getting started with Linux. His first computer was a Linux computer, Fedora in fact. He used Windows at school, but learned Linux at home. The same applies for the next two. All three will swear to you right now that Linux is much easier than Windows. At this point the oldest two have installed and tweaked both OSs many times. They hate Windows with a passion. It simply does not make any sense to them. Things are straight forward in Linux, things go in intuitive places, the file tree makes sense, the user/root system is straight forward and makes sense. The package manager systems make the most sense, with windows you are all over the web trhying to find programs, and you never know if they are safe. With Linux? Everything in a safe repo. It really does not get much simpler. My 7 (8 in 2 months) year old has had his own Linux computer since age 4. He started out with a very locked down version of Christian Ubuntu. I eventually started sliding him sudo privileges, starting with package management, while I retained root. He can now administer a Linux system as well as the average user (not noob) in this forum! At 8 years old. He knows enough to google a problem and copy and paste a command in a terminal. I cant remember when the last time I had to step in to help was. He even did the Mint 6 install all by himself.

I tell you all this not to argue with you, but to show that the problem with threads like this is they are usually written with a very limited perspective. Easier is an intangible quality that can only be defined by each person. When I was an XP power user I had to learn Linux. Linux was much harder for me. But then I went Windows free for many years. I know Linux now. When I had to install and use Vista for school it was hard for me. I knew Linux. Now I use Vista on a regular basis and have it pretty well figured out. I feel that I am more qualified to judge between the two than most others because I regularly use both and am competent with both. And I am not particularly partial to either one, I look at both as simply tools. In fact, I am one of the few people, out of either camp, that really likes Vista Ultimate. It is a great OS, everything XP was without the security holes. They both have strong and weak points, and your particular hardware can make or break either one. But overall I give the ease of use to Linux for the reasons I listed. Try a fresh, box install of Vista then Mint and you tell me which is easier. Administration goes to Windows, you still do need to have some CLI skills with Linux. But this is as it should be. Flexibility? No contest. With Linux you are free. Which do I, IMHO, think is the better OS. Linux. But that wont buy you a cup of coffee, and I realize that. In the end, each user has the freedom to decide for himself. If you prefer Windows you will get no argument from me. But please dont bother trying to assert your opinion that Linux is not ready for prime time, because there are literally millions of users scattered throughout the world, that will heartily disagree with you.
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Fred
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Fred »

Very good post FedoraRefugee. :-)

I too see the ease of use question from a wider perspective. I volunteer in our local school system and have set-up a little computer lab in a local nursing home as well. I see the kids, teachers, nursing staff and senior citizens interact with Windows and Linux on a regular basis. Maybe it is just something in the water in this part of the world, but my experience has been that for the quite young and the older senior citizens, Linux is easier. These are people that don't have any, or at least very little Windows experience. They don't have any preconceived ideas about how a computer should work. Linux is more intuitive to them and they have no fear of the CLI. After all, typing a line of text is something they are familiar with, most being somewhat to quit literate. Most are either trying to give up picture books like "See Spot Run" or have done so many decades ago. :-)

In no time at all the seniors have learned to e-mail their friends and relatives. Sometimes this is the only connection they have to their grand and great grand children. They learn to look up medical problems on the web, to create folders and save photos they receive, and to use a scanner to get photos in the computer to send to their relatives and friends. In general they learn to do everything they wish to do in a safe, virus free environment. The single Windows XP computer is seldom used. In fact, the only people that use it seem to be the staff, doing something personal that they aren't allowed to do on the central server. They don't use the Linux boxes because, as many of you have pointed out, "they aren't ready for prime time." :-) When the Windows box gets so it won't hardly boot, from all the malware it is carrying, I dd it back to the original install that I keep on an old drive just for that purpose. The Windows install lasts between 3 and 4 months. And yes it has a firewall and anti-virus installed. It also is set to auto update the securiety patches from Microsoft. If this is what is needed to become "prime time" I hope Linux never gets there. :-)

Believe it or not the biggest issues arise with the teachers. The kids, no problem, they just dig in and find there way. It is amazing the things they come up with. The teachers, on the other hand just throw up their hands in frustration when Linux doesn't work like they expect it to. ie not like Windows. Sometimes I wonder if the kids and the teachers don't have their roles reversed. :-)

The moral to this long winded rant is that Windows is an impediment to learning Linux. The more proficient you are in Windows, the harder it will be to learn Linux. Learning Linux is easy. Unlearning Windows seems to be the biggest problem. At least this has been my experience.

Fred
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Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on the menu. Liberty is an armed lamb protesting the electoral outcome. A Republic negates the need for an armed protest.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by curt_grymala »

I have been a Windows user since v3.1. I came into Linux when I installed SuSE 9.1 about four years ago. I had often considered trying Linux, but was always afraid.

Once I installed SuSE, I realized that there was nothing to be scared of. All of the stories I had heard about having to do things from the command-line, dealing with all kinds of security hassles and stressing over hardware incompatibilities turned out to be completely false.

What I found was an extremely user-friendly, very easy to use operating system. As time went on, I used Linux more and more and started using Windows less and less. I installed each new version of SuSE shortly after it was released.

However, as SuSE started to get more and more bloated and started running just as slowly as Windows, I started looking for alternatives. I tried Mandriva (which I liked and still use occasionally), I tried Ubuntu, I tried Fedora and I tried Mint. I've got to say that Mint was the right distribution for me.

However, the fact that I was able to try all of those different distributions is just one of the many reasons why I love Linux. Can you imagine what would happen if we were all able to freely try seven or eight different versions of Windows without any obligation? One of the best things about Linux is the diversity of the distros. No matter what you want to do with your computer (besides PC gaming, since those games are still not developed to be compatible with Linux), you can probably find a Linux distro that's tailored to your needs.

Now, I will get into some of the reasons why I like Linux more than Windows at this point and why I think Linux is easier and more user-friendly than Windows (as I am now using Linux almost exclusively at home - only logging into Windows when I need to use Outlook to open some sort of proprietary attachment, Word to view the tracked changes and comments properly in a DOC file or Nero to develop a good photo slideshow DVD - as I haven't yet found a good Linux replacement for NeroVision).

One - I don't have to worry about keeping my software up to date. Linux handles all of that for me. I honestly don't have any software installed that isn't managed by Synaptic or MintUpdate. On Windows, I have to deal with pop-ups in just about every program I open, telling me that an updated version is available. Then, there are programs like the Apple apps (iTunes, Safari, etc.) that prompt me to update almost every day, even though I rarely use the programs. With Linux, however, I just tell MintUpdate to keep my programs up to date, and I completely forget about the fact that I have to do all of that stuff separately in Windows. Can you imagine how much easier the lives of system administrators would be if they could remotely update all of the software on all of the computers in the network?

Two - I don't have to worry about my kids gathering spyware or adware all over the family computer. A lot of this has to do with the fact that Linux is not nearly as popular as Windows, but it is nice to know that a) they can't download and install software and b) they won't inadvertently run software when browsing the Web.

Three - I have much better control over who can do what with my files. If I want to allow my kids to be able to view some of my files, I can put them in a group and add view permissions for that group. I don't have to worry about security issues with that sort of stuff. That's a load off my mind.

Four - For me, things just work. A lot of my stuff works better on Linux than it does on Windows. You can't even imagine the issues I had trying to get the wireless card in the family computer to work properly on XP. I had to install about 400 megs worth of updates before XP would be compatible with my wireless card. Of course, since my wireless card wasn't working, I couldn't connect to the Internet to download all of those updates. On Mint, the wireless card worked out of the box.

I'm not saying that Linux is better for everyone. I understand that there are people that will always like Windows better than Linux. There are also people that will always like Linux better than Windows. Then, there are people like me that liked Windows for a while and slowly migrated toward Linux. No answer is right or wrong for everyone. However, it is wrong to say that Linux is not ready to replace Windows. For many people, Linux is ready to replace Windows. For the most part, a lot of the reasons Linux can't replace Windows is because of the proprietary Microsoft software that has been pushed on us for so long. If we can begin to migrate away from those proprietary applications, there really won't be any reason for many people to continue using Windows.
FedoraRefugee
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by FedoraRefugee »

heh heh, someone's true colors are starting to show!!!

Office 2007 can run in Wine, but I will grant you that it has no comparison. There is actually a thread on this in the Fedora forum, Sun is getting further and further behind with OO.o. However, as long as you are not FORCED to use the MS formatting OO.o can get the job done. You also forgot to mention quickbook pro. Linux has no equivalent to this great software suite.

Other apps? I havent missed anything else not using Windows. Gimp has it all over photoshop, you just got to know how to use it. Lets not forget the other open source apps that have made their way into windows-world. Gimp, Blender, Firefox...There are some good ones.

Bottom line though, you are comparing apples and oranges. Price on OO.o? $0. Price on Linux? $0. Hey, if you want to pay the money for the "better" software, then more power to ya. Sometimes you have no choice.

point number 2? Forget it, give it up. You missed the point and the boat. Windows cannot even come close when it comes to control. I can blacklist whatever apps in my package manager if I do not want them updated. I can choose to not update the kernel, ever. I have never done auto updates in Linux, I manually update twice a week. I like to see what I am getting and when I am getting it.

Point 3? Sure, you could create groups. But most windows class users didnt have a clue. This is why we get them in here trying to run as root all the time. Once again, you are trying to compare Windows lame administration system to Unix/ Linux? Vista finally has created a sensible scenerio, but permissions are still a problem.

point 4? I can see one of your computers not being able to boot Mint at all. Both? Tell me why? Maybe you have a bad iso? Maybe you should have burned it at a slower speed. Grandma can slap in Mint and boot it then install it. Without ever touching a command line. Talk to any of the knowledgeable people in here, this is why Mint has been created. And once again with the Linux making the mainstream comments. This proves your agenda. Like it is a competition? You just do not get it! You are correct, Linux will NEVER make the mainstream, no matter how idiotproof it becomes. I am thankful for this.
by all means keep playing with your toy software, but don't pretend that it can be used to run a BUSINESS.
ROFL! :lol: Guess I'm not running a business on Linux...Wake up! Why dont you go do a defrag or spyware scan or something? You obviously have no clue what you are talking about as far as Linux is concerned.
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Fred
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Fred »

hokkers999,

Up until your last post you were doing well and I was willing to respond in kind in a gentlemanly exchange of knowledge and view points. You left the reservation with your last post however. This is a Linux forum, so I can make a reasonable guess where this thread is going from here, and I don't care to participate any further.

Anybody want to take bets on how many more posts will make it in before Husse locks it down and sends everybody to bed without supper? :-)

Fred
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Please lock this thread.

Post by exploder »

It is a shame. I have had disagreements on other forums and usually we both walk away with respect for each other. Not this time though. Husse will not tolerate rude behavior in the forum. hokkers999 , you crossed the line and this is a Linux forum. Fred is right, this thread will be locked.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Arron »

Ok.... now im tweaked...
bobpur wrote:Hokker999,
Comparatively speaking, Windows is a Honda.
How can *anyone* compare a Honda to Windows? Like seriously.... A Honda never dies, never burns oil and aside from rust will last for ever.

Seriously...... Windows? dude..... Maybe Lada or Dodge (oh now thats a can of worms....) or something but not Honda or Toyota, hands off.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by mipcar »

Well for what it's worth, here is my perception of using Linux.. A bit of back ground, I started on Windows 3X so been well 'conditioned' by Microsoft over the years.
Until the last year or so I would build up my own PC's from components (as opposed to buying a system).

It is unfortunate that most Windows software is expensive and that you need to get all the after-market 'extras' to help your system along. Having said that you can find some good free stuff on magazine CD's. I am using XP and it does some odd things for reasons known only to itself,having said that I like these ease of finding and installing software. I think people with no experience in computers could start being productive with Windows in a relatively short space of time.

I built up an old PC specifically to try out Linux. Using my Windows machine I found a Linux download, copied the .iso file into a loadable format and got up and running in basic Linux O/S fairly quickly. I loved it's fast install and how it can work on an old machine with not much memory (by Windows standards).

Getting online In Linux was more fluke then skill as I could not find/install drivers to get it to 'see' my modem and by sheer luck I plugged in an old wireless connector which it connected me with to get me online. That sped up the process a lot, having connection allowed me to use Mint install to get some other stuff I needed..

Trying to get Linux to see a FDD drive has so far been unsuccessful, likewise mounting a 2nd HDD, it's working but not seamless whereas with Windows (generally speaking) anything new you plug in it will see as a resource that you can use pretty much straight away.

The problem I am finding (with Linux) at the moment is building on what I have started, still cannot get my scanner or printer working. The help from the forum is good but the limitations is my knowledge/understanding.
It's the fundamentals of knowledge that is the stumbling block now, I can open a terminal and type in what I get told to do but it's a case 'monkey see, monkey do' I have only a vague understanding of what the actual command string is doing (been a long time since I did DOS) and if for some reason it does not work then I am stumped.

What I need is a better understanding of terms used and a list of commands and their explanations/applications, from there I can build on.So more advice/explanation in those areas would be very helpful.
I don't think Linux (I'm using Mint 6) is intuitive you do need some some computer skills/understanding.
Having said all that my Linux machine is now a usable backup and I hope to expand on that more with help from the forum.

Mychael
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FedoraRefugee
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Mychael,

Your post was very perceptive. Most modern hardware is now seamless with most distros, and this situation gets better all the time. But sometimes a piece of hardware will throw up a roadblock. In the case of Ubuntu 8.10, and hence Mint 6, one problem is my laptop wireless. It does not work right out of the box like it will in every other distro starting with the *.27 kernel. The solution is very easy, you do need an online connection and you simply download a module and boom, it works. But what if you do not know this? This is the case for a lot of older hardware. There is usually a solution, but sometimes it is hard to find. The thing about Linux, and one of the reasons why it will never make it into the mainstream unless this changes, is there is no "official" support. Just a bunch of us nerds scattered around the world that scrounge solutions as we need them and relate that to others. Not to mention that properly speaking the term "Linux" refers to a kernel and its associated modules. Each distro simply wraps that kernel with whatever GNU open source apps it sees fit and it may tweak the standard kernel in the process. So there really is no "standard" or leadership. It is a wild west business model, do what you want and if you are good, and lucky, you survive.

Anyway, that is neither here nor there for you. But the reason why I am replying is to tell you to not worry too much about understanding bash commands. Really, you rarely do need them these days, unless you just happen to like using bash and doing things from the command line. Some folks do. I am a GUI guy myself. Listen, I have used Linux for 9 years now and I only know a handful of commands by heart. I copy and paste like everyone else. I do have a basic understanding of what is going on behind the scenes through experience, but this is hardly necessary for an average home user. What I am trying to say is dont sweat things too much. Just figure out what you need to get your hardware working and write it down. Hopefully things wont change too drastically by the next time you need it. That is another point for the above paragraph though, Linux does evolve at an amazing pace. Things that are applicable today are not tomorrow. Just hang in there and it will come.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by rdonnelly »

FedoraRefugee wrote:
ROFL! :lol: Guess I'm not running a business on Linux...Wake up! Why dont you go do a defrag or spyware scan or something? You obviously have no clue what you are talking about as far as Linux is concerned.
While he is at it, he should down load all the security updates that prevent malicious attackers from compramising his system. :cry:

When I started with Mint a few months ago, I wondered, where is all the security updates? :mrgreen:

Any ways, Mint installs in about 15 minutes with no multiples reboots, and it runs all my hardware with no downloads. I dont know what this troll is crying about? :lol:
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by rdonnelly »

FedoraRefugee wrote:
ROFL! :lol: Guess I'm not running a business on Linux...Wake up! Why dont you go do a defrag or spyware scan or something? You obviously have no clue what you are talking about as far as Linux is concerned.
While he is at it, he should down load all the security updates that prevent malicious attackers from compramising his system. :cry:

When I started with Mint a few months ago, I wondered, where is all the security updates? :mrgreen:

Any ways, Mint installs in about 15 minutes with no multiples reboots, and it runs all my hardware with no downloads. I dont know what this troll is crying about? :lol:
Using Mint since 2008
*Mint 18.2 KDE
*ASUS 970 PRO GAMING/AURA AM3+ AMD 970 + SB 950 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.1
*AMD FX-8370 with AMD Wraith cooler Vishera 8-Core 4.0 GHz (4.3 GHz Turbo)
*G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 16GB DDR3 SDRAM
*nVIDIA GEFORCE GT 610 2GB
mipcar
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by mipcar »

Thanks for the reply 'Fed' (can I call you "Fed'?) Can someone point me in the direction of where in the forums I might find a compendium of terms and their meanings? Also a list of the basic Bash? (is the the right term?) commands and their uses.

Mychael
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FedoraRefugee
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by FedoraRefugee »

mipcar wrote:Thanks for the reply 'Fed' (can I call you "Fed'?) Can someone point me in the direction of where in the forums I might find a compendium of terms and their meanings? Also a list of the basic Bash? (is the the right term?) commands and their uses.

Mychael
Fed is fine, or FR, or you can even call me Sean if you remember. :D

I used to have some good sites bookmarked but have long since lost them. A quick google search turned up these:

http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/linux/cmd/
http://linux-sxs.org/programming/bashcheat.html
http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/51 ... 27311.html
http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/lin ... ollection/
http://fosswire.com/2007/08/02/unixlinu ... eat-sheet/

There are many more like these.

You may also dig this:

http://tuxtraining.com/wp-content/uploa ... 8383-1.png

It is a wallpaper with cli commands.

Again though, my reality is I really only use a few consistantly.

You can usually find specialized app commands by using the man command, such as "man apt-get," "man sudo." or "man dpkg."
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by mipcar »

Thanks Sean. The Foss link was the sort of thing I was looking for.

Mychael
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Husse »

Fred alerted me about this topic
I have warned hokkers999 because he seems to be a troll with limited knowledge and/or understanding of Windows as well as Linux
There is no doubt that Linux is lacking in some respects but they are getting fewer and fewer. It is possible to use Linux in a Windows domain, Active directory is available for Linux and there are Linux solutions that are as good as or better than these Windows enterprise applications and others (Outlook can be used in Linux)
Hardware support is about as good as for Vista but somewhat worse than for XP
Support for viruses and malware is totally absent in Linux, if you want these try Windows which has a well developed support for them.
The main thing is that for the most you have to install Linux yourself and straighten out possible problems before you are fully ready to use it
In a preinstalled Windows you should not have to do that
It is fruitless to go on saying Windows is best no Linux is best no Windows like kids in a sandbox
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by NoClue! »

Billable rate aside, thanks for dropping by our little corner of the world and sharing some of your consulting expertise with us. I'm truly sorry your experience with Linux Mint pushed you into a state of confusion and feelings of helplessness. We'd hoped for so much more.

In an unrelated story. I have been putting Linux Mint into the hands of some of the stupidest, marginally literate people I know. My own little experiment. Just the other day I ran into such a fellow. He's a ward of the state actually. Poor guy suffers from numerous mental inconsistencies, caught him at a particularly tranquil moment. Fully medicated I presumed. He went on to thank me for the computer I had donated to him, a dual boot Windows XP/ Linux Mint 6 box but offered that he had been having some problems with it. He said he was having some difficulty getting his wireless usb adapter to work in Windows XP but it was very easy to do and worked perfectly in Linux Mint 6. I offered to take a look at it for him, he declined and said Linux Mint was easier for him anyhow. True story.

So heart warming. I just had to share that with my fellow Linux Mint users.


Edit: If this is the wrong place to post this I apologise, this seemed the best section.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by mkvnmtr »

The post with the link to the command line wallpaper was neat. Thanks. It made reading a bit of this thread worth the time.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Husse »

For my customers who are learning to navigate Windows, I explain the file system as a regular filing cabinet.
That would be true for Linux as well - as long as we are not discussing mountpoints and the like I see no difference between Linux and Windows
Linux is even better as you know that all your personal data is in home - you could compare that to your drawer in the filing cabinet whilst in Windows your data is spread out - like you have some in the bottom drawer and some in the middle one and some in a drawer labeled with your name
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by curt_grymala »

ronnoc wrote:
Husse wrote:That would be true for Linux as well - as long as we are not discussing mountpoints and the like I see no difference between Linux and Windows
Linux is even better as you know that all your personal data is in home - you could compare that to your drawer in the filing cabinet whilst in Windows your data is spread out - like you have some in the bottom drawer and some in the middle one and some in a drawer labeled with your name
I would have to agree Husse. For many people (including me at first) the confusing thing was HOW LOGICAL things are in linux with regard to where your personal stuff is. At least for me, my brain originally tried to make it much harder than it actually was. :mrgreen:
I have to agree with you both. Only, the real difference between Linux and Windows file systems is where, physically, the data is found. For Windows users, although it's unnoticeable on the surface, the files are scattered physically all over the drive. It's almost like going to the file cabinet and finding the papers from one particular folder scattered all over the cabinet, in different folders, in different drawers, etc. However, when you open the file cabinet, you can at least see all of the papers that belong in that folder.

However, in Linux for the most part, when you open the file drawer, not only do you see all of the papers that belong in your folder, those papers are physically located in the folder. They're not scattered all over the drive (unless, of course, you have a RAID setup, in which case they're scattered across multiple drives, but that's on purpose).

That scattering of files (or "fragmenting") ultimately causes more chance of having corrupted files. If one particular physical portion of your hard drive goes bad, it's possible that a small piece of every file on your drive is located in that physical portion of the drive. That stinks.

At least, that's the way I understand the differences between the Linux and Windows file systems. I may be mistaken.

BTW - I like your avatar, ronnoc.
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shane
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

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Now this is cool!
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