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[Answered] kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:41 am
by FreedomTruth
I previously used Linux Mint 17.0, updated to 17.3 and again to 18.0. In the 17.x Update Manager, under Linux Kernels it would show which one(s) were installed, and which one was "recommended." I did once update my installed to the newer recommended one. Now, under Mint 18.0 the Update Manager no longer shows a recommended kernel. I'm on 4.4.0-21, is there any reason to update to a newer kernel? All of my hardware is working acceptably, except for my Logitech G510 keyboard (spent a few days trying to get g15daemon to work right with it, I've given up for now-- it's not a big deal, just missing out on some extra macro keys). Are there "stable" and "testing" kernels? I'd rather keep my system stable, but would like to keep it updated if there are important (security?) fixes in later kernels.

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:18 am
by Pjotr
Well, you could always try the latest one: 4.4.0-38. If it causes problems, simply boot from the older kernel and remove the -38 again. Mint's kernel tool makes all this very easy. :mrgreen:

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:37 pm
by ostracized
FreedomTruth wrote:I'm on 4.4.0-21, is there any reason to update to a newer kernel?
Yeah, lots of security updates for one thing. And don't take my word for it, read about them yourself:
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3055-1/
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3070-1/
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3084-1/

The leveling system of updates should really be done away with since a "dangerous" update is easily misleading compared to a "security" update. There's a few naysayers out there but it's a change that really needs to happen.

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:55 pm
by ostracized
Forgot one more since you're still on 21: viewtopic.php?p=1186569#p1186569

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:01 pm
by Pjotr
ostracized wrote:Yeah, lots of security updates for one thing. And don't take my word for it, read about them yourself:
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3055-1/
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3070-1/
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3084-1/
Not all of those are relevant to a desktop user (not being a server user) *in real life*.... Not all security updates are created equal. The kernel generally isn't a high risk package like Firefox, Chrome and Adobe Flash Player (to name just a few). :)
The leveling system of updates should really be done away with since a "dangerous" update is easily misleading compared to a "security" update. There's a few naysayers out there but it's a change that really needs to happen.
I say "nay" as well: I think that the protective level system for the updates, is Mint's crown jewel. Ideal both for beginners and for system administrators....

Note that *you* choose your update policy yourself. *You* decide, not Mint. It's a mandatory choice, the first time that you run Update Manager. You're being forced to consider this matter, and the preselected default is reasonable (although I would like to see the first and least invasive update policy as the default).

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:19 pm
by ostracized
Pjotr wrote:I say "nay" as well: I think that the protective level system for the updates, is Mint's crown jewel. Ideal both for beginners and for system administrators....
Well, if the default choice of "Optimize stability and security" is selected, no kernel updates get selected -- and that defeats the purpose of "security" in my mind. It's not like these kernel updates don't get sufficiently tested in the first place (at least on the Ubuntu side.)
FreedomTruth wrote:...Logitech G510...
It's also worth the effort on sending Logi an email about Linux support. If they don't see demand for Linux support, they'll never provide support for devices with macro keys and buttons (on mice with more than 2 buttons.) So please do it. :)

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:16 pm
by Cosmo.
Regarding the "recommended" kernels: This did lead to a great misunderstanding in the past and has therefor been removed. Those "recommended" kernels were not more and not less than simply those, which came pre-installed in a fresh installation of the respective version of Mint. Interpret "recommended" with "default" and you are on the right trap. As hardware is different on different computers the best kernel is the one, which works at best on the given hardware. In fact the "recommended" kernel (in LM 17.x) is nothing else than the latest available at the time of preparation the Mint version for release.

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:22 pm
by Cosmo.
ostracized wrote:It's not like these kernel updates don't get sufficiently tested in the first place (at least on the Ubuntu side.)
I am sure, that all updates get tested - but obviously not on all systems / hardware platforms, that ever exist. "Tested" does not imply, that there is no chance of regressions. For some type of packages the risk of crucial regressions is greater than for others. That is the background of the level system and I judge those as naysayers, who ignore that fact.

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:50 pm
by Pjotr
ostracized wrote:Well, if the default choice of "Optimize stability and security" is selected, no kernel updates get selected
But they do. When the newer kernel contains security fixes, you should see them then.... Note the description for that update policy:
"Only select updates that are known to be safe or which do not impact critical parts of the operating system.
But also show me security and kernel updates."

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:28 pm
by ostracized
Pjotr wrote:
ostracized wrote:Well, if the default choice of "Optimize stability and security" is selected, no kernel updates get selected
But they do. When the newer kernel contains security fixes, you should see them then.... Note the description for that update policy:
"Only select updates that are known to be safe or which do not impact critical parts of the operating system.
But also show me security and kernel updates."
I mentioned "selected" to which a new user is likely not going to do. I understand yours and Cosmo's point, my issue was with mincing words like "dangerous" and "security." Perhaps that comes from my windows habits of "update early and often." My hope is that many users aren't going to become complacent in their installed software and shrug off so many updates to which they would say, "oh, this is for server users only," etc. That's all.

Re: kernel question - mint 18.0 mate

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:51 pm
by FreedomTruth
Cosmo. wrote:Regarding the "recommended" kernels: This did lead to a great misunderstanding in the past and has therefor been removed. Those "recommended" kernels were not more and not less than simply those, which came pre-installed in a fresh installation of the respective version of Mint. Interpret "recommended" with "default" and you are on the right trap. As hardware is different on different computers the best kernel is the one, which works at best on the given hardware. In fact the "recommended" kernel (in LM 17.x) is nothing else than the latest available at the time of preparation the Mint version for release.
Thanks for the explanation. I thought "recommended" meant it was more tested or something :oops: