How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

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ManTaRa
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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by ManTaRa »

JeremyB wrote:I would use the Synaptic Package Manager and search for installed Packages with linux in the name and see which one includes the kernel image and headers. Post the result here
@JeremyB:

OK, I checked synaptic with your request, although I'm not sure why using synaptic is any different than using Updater . . . wasn't trying to find out which kernel I'm using, etc. But, it looks like right now three kernels are installed. Synaptic didn't narrow it down until I used "linux-generic" to search and it found "4.4.0-21.37," "4.4.0-45.66," and "4.4.0-51.72" are installed.

Updater shows the same information, and shows that two kernels from 4.8 are available . . . in that sense Updater is "better" than synaptic because it has a "kernels" tab to click on . . . synaptic shows a huge list of stuff using "kernel" to search, and then didn't find all three installed kernels on my computer . . . accessed "non-remotely" . . . .

As mentioned previously, it still would be "better" if the Terminal commands of yore continued to have their same power to find and install current kernel upgrades . . . for those who use the Terminal to do stuff . . . and, for those GUI users have Updater handle it in any way that Clem sees fit . . . ???

MTR

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Moem
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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by Moem »

ManTaRa wrote: the traditional . . . very simple "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" brings historically the relevant upgrades . . . including basic kernel updates . . . and also generally in LM it all goes well . . . .
If you're lucky. If not, you get regressions from level 4 and 5 updates. Do what you prefer, but don't recommend others to use this method on Linux Mint, especially not newbies like me who cannot fix regressions that may occur.

It doesn't bring 'relevant' upgrades, it brings ALL upgrades. Is that clear to you? I can't figure out whether or not you understand the level system in Mint.
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este.el.paz
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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by este.el.paz »

Moem wrote:
ManTaRa wrote: the traditional . . . very simple "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" brings historically the relevant upgrades . . . including basic kernel updates . . . and also generally in LM it all goes well . . . .
If you're lucky. If not, you get regressions from level 4 and 5 updates. Do what you prefer, but don't recommend others to use this method on Linux Mint, especially not newbies like me who cannot fix regressions that may occur.

It doesn't bring 'relevant' upgrades, it brings ALL upgrades. Is that clear to you? I can't figure out whether or not you understand the level system in Mint.
OMG, this is like the apple forums where the list gurus answer questions by saying, "Possibly you can't understand the 'genius' of assigning numerical levels to the Updater packages . . . it sounds like it is 'beyond' your capacity to fathom the 'sophistication' of this application" ???

Have to say I'm with Manta and wharfrat on this one, why degrade sudo power for those who are used to using the "dist-upgrade" option, when in the case of LM "LTS" versions very little ever breaks or "regresses" in Mint??

moem: I don't know why you would suggest that the OP "shouldn't tell others about dist-upgrade" if, as you say, you are a "newbie who couldn't fix a regression," if in fact it has every happened for you. It doesn't look like you are actually addressing the OPs question, or providing direction as to where the OP could either find his answer, or where to file an official "bug report" on the problem such that Clem could "get the message." What are you offering to the OPs question besides basically saying they shouldn't even be asking the question--because it is a "dangerous suggestion to newbies"??

et al: Clearly LM is moving in the direction of "user friendliness" as far as making the upgrade process "tiered" by numerical value; that's great for people just moving to linux from apple or windows, but, for longer time linux users-- not necessary as far as LM goes to degrade sudo capacity. As far as "need to know" about "ALL upgrades" . . . for the most part do you or anyone "research" each and every package name listed in a potentially 60 item list to insure that "nothing will go wrong if I click to install"??? Usually they are some hum-drum part of some dependency, that is "under the hood" mechanism and it doesn't require "careful thinking" to decide whether to move forward with "some of them, or, maybe a few of them." A regular "upgrade" shows what might be in Clem's humble system the #1 -#3, or #4 level choices; and then the "dist-upgrade" command will show the kernel options. Apt is pretty good about providing "errors" on commands that might cause a problem. For those who want the latest OS and kernel, then they should know that they are crossing over to the "sid" and there might be some "instability." For those who want the relative "safety net" of the staged Updater, it's there for them.

e.e.p.
MacBookPro5,4 2.53Ghz Core 2 Duo 4GB Ram LM17.1 MATE 64-bit w/ very-humorous Floating Feets!!!

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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by Penn »

This is the peace (I like that name by the way - did I translate correct) -

Count me with Wharfrat and Mant then. Even though I was questioning why someone would eschew GUI my default position on most issues where allowing choice is a possible option, my usual position will be to allow informed choice. Thus the reason I pointed the OP to a possible solution to make dist-upgrade work BUT I stated my opinion they should heed the disclaimer in the post (and that disclaimer itself is part of the reason I pointed that direction).

So Moem, IMO, has a valid point also insofar as where her concern seems to be. If a person recommends line commands to do any type of updates it should be accompanied with a warning or disclaimer. And I have personal experience that in my eyes backs that opinion.

I always have a USB stick with an install of whichever Mint I am actually running for experiments or testing (yes an install, not a live version). Not long after starting with Mint 17.0 this same debate came up. So, I pulled out my experimenting stick and booted it. I tried dist-upgrade. Messed up that install. I then decided to try again but test it a different way. I reinstalled on the stick. I then used Update Manager to ONLY update anything kernel related and, unlike the first time, actually took not of the kernel version after reboot. Again I did the line command. On reboot I stopped grub to verify dist-upgrade did not touch the level 4 or 5 kernel updates and since it didn't resumed boot. My graphics were so messed up the machine was unusable. Reinstalled one more time and applied all updates, including level 4 and 5 and that install continued to work fine until I went to 17.1.

The view I came to from that experience is if Mint makes a GUI solution, I usually use that. Even if I know the CLI commands or system files to alter to do the same thing. I do say usually because I haven't been able to get the GUI disks (in accessories) to implement the correct settings to auto-mount a partition at startup but I know exactly how to edit fstab to do it. Other than that one example my attitude if a Mint designed GUI is tailored to work for a Mint system. No need to take a risk.

But even if that is my view, choice is good. So if someone has tried to implement the possible solution I linked to in this thread they should report back for those interested. Even though I don't recommend doing it that way.

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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by Moem »

Penn wrote:If a person recommends line commands to do any type of updates it should be accompanied with a warning or disclaimer.
Thank you. That's exactly what I meant to say.

It's fine if people choose to update in a way that circumvents the levels, but they need to know that this is what they're doing, otherwise it's not an informed choice. That's all.
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JeremyB
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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by JeremyB »

I actually think that dist-upgrade will not update a kernel in LM18 as the package used for the kernel and headers is still at 4.4.0-21

A CLI fix might be

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get install linux-image-generic linux-headers-generic
But a dry run to see what happens is advisable

Code: Select all

apt-get install --dry-run linux-image-generic linux-headers-generic
See what the output is

ManTaRa
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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by ManTaRa »

este.el.paz wrote:
Moem wrote:
ManTaRa wrote: the traditional . . . very simple "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" brings historically the relevant upgrades . . . including basic kernel updates . . . and also generally in LM it all goes well . . . .
Have to say I'm with Manta and wharfrat on this one, why degrade sudo power for those who are used to using the "dist-upgrade" option, when in the case of LM "LTS" versions very little ever breaks or "regresses" in Mint??

It doesn't look like you are actually addressing the OPs question, or providing direction as to where the OP could either find his answer, or where to file an official "bug report" on the problem such that Clem could "get the message." What are you offering to the OPs question besides basically saying they shouldn't even be asking the question--because it is a "dangerous suggestion to newbies"??

For those who want the latest OS and kernel, then they should know that they are crossing over to the "sid" and there might be some "instability." For those who want the relative "safety net" of the staged Updater, it's there for them.

e.e.p.
@e.e.p., etc:

Thanks for the support, much appreciated; and thanks for the idea of filing a bug report, or some kind of "formal" complaint that might get Clem's attention to try to revise the sudo capacity such that "dist-upgrade" or "apt full-upgrade" once again does what it has done in past editions of LM . . . that would be my request to Clem, if he were of a mind to revisit his plan to protect all linux users from sudo running unthrottled at full tilt and allowing "dist-upgrade" to have its way with the system . . . rough trade all over the place, so to speak.

I guess it all depends upon the history of how long one has been with linux . . . "problems" have been known to happen, and re-installs via nuke n pave have certainly been part of my interaction with linux, even with Mint, which is pretty refined already, swathing the user with wonderful GUI capacities. It can however be taken "too far" and in this instance I and a few others here seem to think that has happened. Even within the perfected system of OSX, stuff does happen, so the whole notion that "nothing will go wrong . . . ever" . . . somewhat humorous . . . come on over to PPC linux and see what I mean . . . dependencies are breaking all the time . . . .

Let's breathe in and say . . . "Namaste, you all . . . and then run sudo apt full-upgrade . . . and post back with your findings . . . like "real" linux people do."

MTR

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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by ManTaRa »

JeremyB wrote:I actually think that dist-upgrade will not update a kernel in LM18 as the package used for the kernel and headers is still at 4.4.0-21
@JeremyB:

That's what I'm reporting, that dist-upgrade will not update the kernel in LM18 . . . but in 17 I believe it still did that. Thanks for the suggested dry run commands, I'll test it out and see what happens . . . .

MTR

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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by Moem »

Ah, there are "real" Linux people now? Okay then. :lol:
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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by scorp123 »

Penn wrote:Curious question (and yes, I'm just curious), why do some people avoid GUI solutions that Mint offers like those solutions have leprosy?
GUI's are a lie, they're just front-ends to the shell.
Through the shell, I gain sudo.
Through sudo, I gain power.
Through power, I gain root.
Through root, my chains are broken.
uid=0 shall free me.

viewtopic.php?p=21933#p21933

;)

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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by ManTaRa »

@scorp:

Very true . . . the console can be more "efficient" . . . that is what is being stated here . . . over and over. It seems to be clear from what the mods are implying with their general attitude to my question is that Clem is NOT going to re-visit this Updater only for kernel upgrades idea . . . ho hum.

@moem:

Continuing to be non-helpful, thank you very much. If you have ever visited the what I call the "black" linux user forum you would get a better picture of what the "traditional" linux user is about, and they do exhibit the notion of the "real linux user;" I'm not claiming to be one, as for the most part I am a gui user; but for the weekly, bi-weekly updates the console is without a doubt the most efficient way to handle that, period. Seems like until Clem decides to re-visit his vision on this topic there isn't too much that can be said here . . . .

MTR

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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by Moem »

ManTaRa wrote: thank you very much.
You're very welcome.

Here in the Linux Mint forum, we consider all Linux users to be "real" Linux users, no matter whether they prefer the GUI or the CLI. Beginners or gurus, it doesn't matter, all are welcome. That's the spirit of this forum. Please keep that in mind.
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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by ManTaRa »

Moem wrote:
ManTaRa wrote: thank you very much.
You're very welcome.

Here in the Linux Mint forum, we consider all Linux users to be "real" Linux users, no matter whether they prefer the GUI or the CLI. Beginners or gurus, it doesn't matter, all are welcome. That's the spirit of this forum. Please keep that in mind.
@Moem:

It's indeed great that "all are welcome" in this forum, and yes comparatively this forum is more "user friendly" than some of the "purist" forums . . . but, repeating again that overall your posts have not actually offered "help" or insight on my problem . . . so, spiritually you have not been supportive to my inquiry. And, seeing that I'm not the only person who is raising this question, providing simplistic responses to phrases is not "guidance" . . . but probably just trying to increase your post count level in the forum . . . . Good day to you.

MTR

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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by Moem »

I've explained to you why it is that updating through the GUI is the recommended method in Mint. You might have considered that to be informative. I'm sure someone, some time, will read it and think: Aha, so that's why.
We can't help all the people, all the time. But we certainly try.

A very nice evening to you, too!
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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by ManTaRa »

et al:

Following up on the latest update on this thread and the interface with the Updater to get kernel updates . . . . Since I last posted here I switched over to using the Updater to handle the system upgrades . . . and all was "fine" until maybe a month or so back when attempting to upgrade what should have been a "simple" update on Firefox as well as the adobeflashplugin . . . and a kernel--which brought an error "couldn't retrieve" the packages . . . of FF and adobe, but the error also broke the download on the kernel . . . ???

I switched over to the Terminal (my olde friend) and ran the commands "manually" . . . same result. I tried each method a few times over the ensuing weeks, each time bringing the "error" . . . . Yesterday I searched the forum and found another similar thread as this one with a complaint of "errors" reported while trying to do an upgrade . . . and one of the helpers suggested running "apt-get autoclean" and "apt-get clean" . . . and the OP posted back that "it didn't work" . . . but then a couple posts later, "It worked!!!" . . . so I ran those commands . . . "manually" . . . and a whole bunch of items were showing to be "del" . . . .

Just for "humor" I then ran "apt update/upgrade" in the terminal and it showed something like "114 packages available to upgrade" . . . plus a kernel. To continue my testing of the Updater I then checked the Updater and it showed something like "50 packages" to update . . . so I did that, and I "refreshed" and it showed a few more packages . . . which I installed . . . refreshed, and finally got the "System is up to date"!!!!

Again, checking for humor's sake I went back to the Terminal and ran "autoremove" to clean the old kernel's, then ran apt again . . . and it shows "35 packages" to install . . . grub, dbus, systemd . . . ???? I installed those "manually" the olde fashioned way . . . .

So, reason for posting this is that, for some reason the Updater is or wasn't able to "refresh" itself or delete old packages that did something to the repos?? or some aspect of its function so that it "errored" out of installing a couple basic packages, and I "had" to use the Terminal to clean that up, then Updater didn't pull in all of the options that apt found as available for installing . . . declaring "up to date" . . . when numerous other packages showed up in the console using "apt upgrade" . . . .

MTR

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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by ManTaRa »

Continuing saga on the "Updater" vs console for updates/upgrades . . . today, booting Mint the Updater shows a number of packages to update, including a kernel . . . all of which I installed via Updater. I rebooted and refreshed the updates and nothing showed--"your system is up to date."

Again, for humor I then launched the Terminal and ran update/upgrade via apt . . . "8 packages are available to upgrade" . . . so I did that . . . via the console.

An hour or so later Updater shows an additional "1 package available" . . . possibly the same "adobe-flash-plugin" that I was looking for last month??? It would be "nice" if all updates could be handled by the Terminal, as a one stop shop . . . rather than having to use Updater to get the "kernels" . . . but, which doesn't seem to pull all the packages in . . . and then having to use the console, which, also doesn't seem to bring all of the available packages in . . . ???

mTr

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Re: How to "dist-upgrade" the kernel in LM18?

Post by deleted »

FWIW... you never want to use apt-get dist-upgrade on point release Mint (or Ubuntu). In other words, you only want to use it on rolling Debian release like testing or sid (siduction, semplice, to name 2 other rolling release Debian distros.) And on rolling releases, you only want to use dist-upgrade (and not upgrade). It is the nature of Debian.
-Hinto

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