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[Solved] LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:42 am
by tomliotta
In my LM 17.3 system, I have LibreOffice Version: 5.0.3.2, Build ID: 1:5.0.3~rc2-0ubuntu1~trusty2, which includes Writer, Calc, Impress, Draw and Math... but no Base.

I found thread I want to use Base - not included in LibreOffice... in this forum, but it really doesn't help much except to indicate that missing Base isn't unique.

Software Manager doesn't list libreoffice-base. And for the first time, I tried Synaptic Package Manager; and libreoffice-base is listed as available and apparently matching already installed LibreOffice.

So, questios:

1. Why two "managers"? In looking at them, I'd assume that Software Manager is intended for newbies; but Synaptic can be a better choice after feeling comfortable with the concepts that exist behind both of them. And at some point, neither is needed because command-line actions do it all anyway.

2. Why would libreoffice-base not appear at all in Software Manager? I suspect it's because Base tends to be important more to somewhat advanced users anyway, so it's ignored by the simpler manager. Settings seem to indicate that both managers look at the same repositories, so there might be an attribute that allows the package to be seen by one and not the other. Or perhaps there's a file that drives the list in Software Manager?

3. Is there any higher risk going through Synaptic (other than the somewhat higher complexity of the interface)?

Thanks for any guidance.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:07 am
by Moem
tomliotta wrote: Why two "managers"? In looking at them, I'd assume that Software Manager is intended for newbies; but Synaptic can be a better choice after feeling comfortable with the concepts that exist behind both of them.
You answered your own question very well. Software Manager is very easy to use but Synaptic offers more options.
tomliotta wrote:And at some point, neither is needed because command-line actions do it all anyway.
Many people never arrive at this point and that may be because they have no intention to travel in that direction. Some of us are happy using GUI tools and see no reason to change.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am
by Cosmo.
tomliotta wrote:1. Why two "managers"?
A new user coming from Windows, which does not now the package concept, might feel more comfortable with the software manager. A user, who wants more control and options, will prefer the package manager.
You could also ask, why there are 2 picture viewers installed by default.
tomliotta wrote:2. Why would libreoffice-base not appear at all in Software Manager?
Actually it appears there; tested with LM 17.3 & 18.1.
As simply databases can easily created with Calc, Base is surely only of interest for users, which need the power of a relational database.
tomliotta wrote:3. Is there any higher risk going through Synaptic (other than the somewhat higher complexity of the interface)?
No.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:13 pm
by killer de bug
Could you please post the output of apt policy libreoffice-base

Code: Select all

KDB@KDB-N24-25JU ~ $ apt policy libreoffice-base
libreoffice-base:
  Installé : 1:5.1.6~rc2-0ubuntu1~xenial1
  Candidat : 1:5.1.6~rc2-0ubuntu1~xenial1
 Table de version :
 *** 1:5.1.6~rc2-0ubuntu1~xenial1 500
        500 http://ftp.tudelft.nl/archive.ubuntu.com xenial-updates/main amd64 Packages
        500 http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu xenial-security/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
     1:5.1.2-0ubuntu1 500
        500 http://ftp.tudelft.nl/archive.ubuntu.com xenial/main amd64 Packages

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:12 pm
by tomliotta
killer de bug wrote:Could you please post the output of apt policy libreoffice-base
Yep, easy enough:

Code: Select all

toml@T500-64 ~ $ apt policy libreoffice-base
libreoffice-base:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 1:5.0.3~rc2-0ubuntu1~trusty2
  Version table:
     1:5.0.3~rc2-0ubuntu1~trusty2 0
        500 http://packages.linuxmint.com/ rosa/import amd64 Packages
     1:4.2.8-0ubuntu5 0
        500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ trusty-updates/main amd64 Packages
        500 http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ trusty-security/main amd64 Packages
     1:4.2.3~rc3-0ubuntu2 0
        500 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ trusty/main amd64 Packages
The reminder to review options (i.e., apt policy) gives good search direction.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:50 am
by killer de bug
ok then it's not installed. Let's install it:

Code: Select all

apt install libreoffice-base

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:01 pm
by tomliotta
killer de bug wrote:ok then it's not installed. Let's install it...
Though kind of new to Linux, after 40+ years as a developer in the industry, I was pretty certain it wasn't installed. I've gone on and installed, and it's working. The command-line was sufficient.

The general underlying question, though, is still unclear. Why would one "manager" list it as available while the other doesn't list it at all? I can understand it not being installed by default, since most users won't know what to do with it. But not showing it at all? Is it just 'one of those things' that only those behind the building/maintenance of LM install packages know?

Is there a Software Manager preference/setting that would make it show up? If so, I'd expect other packages might also suddenly become visible. But if not, maybe Synaptic should just be my go-to manager (once I fully grasp its options).

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:59 pm
by jimallyn
tomliotta wrote:maybe Synaptic should just be my go-to manager (once I fully grasp its options).
I have used Synaptic the entire 15 years I have been using Linux. I opened Software Manager once just to see what it looked like. Or maybe it was to help somebody troubleshoot a problem they were having with it. Whatever. Anyway, I am still using Synaptic.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:22 am
by pdc_2
same here; I had got the impression Software Manager was an Ubuntu development; about 3-4yrs ago; to sort of make installing software more friendly and "logical": I similarly got the sense that it missed some stuff; it seemed more effort to wade through it; so I have stuck to synaptic; one stop go-to

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:11 am
by killer de bug
tomliotta wrote:The general underlying question, though, is still unclear. [...] I can understand it not being installed by default, since most users won't know what to do with it.
Well I don't know why it wasn't installed in your case. It is supposed to be part of a default install. It was supposed to be installed from scratch on your system. :wink:

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:10 am
by Cosmo.
tomliotta wrote:The general underlying question, though, is still unclear. Why would one "manager" list it as available while the other doesn't list it at all?
Once again: This is not a valid question, because this differently behavior is usually not the case.
A valid question would be, why this does happen for you. One possible explanation: Out of which reason ever base is not installed on your system and you have set in software manager to only show installed programs.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:18 am
by tomliotta
Cosmo. wrote:One possible explanation: Out of which reason ever base is not installed on your system and you have set in software manager to only show installed programs.
I thought about that at the start. But if so, then why have I so far always been able to enter a search term for apps that aren't installed and have Software Manager list them as available? And, of course, I've been able to select and install those, e.g., Remmina. For the most part, I've never used Software manager except in order to find things that are not already installed.

Why would libreoffice-base be different? (And only in Software Manager?)

Now that it's installed, it is indeed listed (as 'installed'). I might try removing it just to see if its entry disappears; but if it doesn't disappear, things might be even less clear. Maybe someone will run across a possible answer, so I'll hold off on a 'Remove' test for a while.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:34 am
by tomliotta
Cosmo. wrote:
tomliotta wrote:
tomliotta wrote:2. Why would libreoffice-base not appear at all in Software Manager?
Actually it appears there; tested with LM 17.3 & 18.1.
As simply databases can easily created with Calc, Base is surely only of interest for users, which need the power of a relational database.
In mine, libreoffice-base-core and libreoffice-base-drivers were both listed and installed as part of LibreOffice. Those allow Calc, etc., to do the necessary actions sufficient for them. That's not the same as "LibreOffice Base" (libreoffice-base) itself though. It was just libreoffice-base that was missing.

Of course, there might be hundreds/thousands of others also missing, and I wouldn't know.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:14 pm
by Cosmo.
tomliotta wrote:Why would libreoffice-base be different? (And only in Software Manager?)
Impossible to answer, as this contradicts all observations here.

if you like, do this test: Boot the live system of your Mint and check there.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:22 pm
by tomliotta
Cosmo. wrote:
tomliotta wrote:Why would libreoffice-base be different? (And only in Software Manager?)
Impossible to answer, as this contradicts all observations here.
If "here" means this thread, then that seems true. But other threads in this forum show that it's not unique. It doesn't contradict what has happened with some other users outside of this thread. I was curious if anyone had ever found an actual cause.
if you like, do this test: Boot the live system of your Mint and check there.
Not that's a great suggestion. Much appreciated. Should've thought of it myself. Simple and obvious.

Re: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:12 am
by Cosmo.
tomliotta wrote:
Cosmo. wrote:
tomliotta wrote:Why would libreoffice-base be different? (And only in Software Manager?)
Impossible to answer, as this contradicts all observations here.
If "here" means this thread, then that seems true.
"Here" means in this case, on my (Cosmo.'s) local systems. I simply cannot reproduce it. If you have found similar cases in other threads, please provide the links.

The point is this: Software Manager just as Synaptic are front ends for the same package management, so they must show the same (but in different ways). If a front end should not be able to display the repositories properly (theoretically thinkable), than it would be a bug, but in this case all users of the same version should be affected. As said, I have checked the problem with 17.3 & 18.1 and in both cases LO Base did show up.

[Solved]: LM 17.3 Cinnamon and... LibreOffice Base?

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:42 am
by tomliotta
I'm calling this 'Solved'. A LM 18 system, a LM 18 boot USB and a LM 17 boot USB all showed (1) LibreOffice Base as not installed; however, (2) they all also showed it as 'Available' in Software Manager.

So, the LM 17.3 system that now has it installed after a basic command line request and that now shows it as 'Installed' in Software Manager is going to stay that way. If I didn't want to use Base, I might 'Remove' it to see if it disappears from Software Manager. But unfortunately that won't necessarily provide an answer.

I'm satisfied that at some point after the initial LM 17 clean install on this device and then going through upgrades up to LM 17.3, some fumbling action of mine must have either unset the 'Available' setting in Software Manager or caused the driver file to be stored incorrectly. Also, Base probably isn't installed as a LibreOffice app because of its limited usage among users.

If I ever see anything like this again, I'll toggle 'Available' off and exit Software Manager. Then start Software Manager again and toggle 'Available' back on to see if settings are properly stored and retrieved.

Kudos to Cosmo especially for the Live Boot suggestion. Also to killer de bug and Moem for responses to questions and to jimallyn and pdc_2 for confirming opinions. The combination of responses makes for useful Newbie discussion.