Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

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thx-1138
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Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by thx-1138 »

turtlebay wrote:@ pcpunk,

don't worry, there are some die-hards here who always turn down any request regarding security on Mint. It seems almost that they don't want to help us with security.

Sorry if my post was read differently to how I meant it. I really cannot imagine what goes through their brains when they can't see the sense it making a sticky post about the most talked about and feared global IT threat that affects 50% of the world's computers.

Maybe they want everyone to go back to using Windows again?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42788169
...ehhhm...you gotta be kidding, right? Which request for help in regards to security was turned down?
There have been HUNDREDS of threads in regards to Meltdown/Spectre in this forum since early January!!! Probably more help / support requests than in any other linux-related board out there...and the very same things have actually been explained over & over & over again numerous times...
turtlebay

Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by turtlebay »

And they are dotted about in hundreds of different threads, not set out in a sensible sequence that someone can go to for advice. Perhaps you don't mind wading through hundreds of posts with differing opinions and being thoroughly confused in the end.

Look at how some other distros are trying to help their users on Distrowatch and then look at the inglorious muddle here on Mint!

"KaOS is an independent, rolling Linux distribution featuring a polished KDE Plasma desktop and the Pacman package manager. The KaOS project has released a new snapshot, KaOS 2018.01, which features fixes for the Meltdown and Spectre CPU bugs."
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Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by Pjotr »

Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 21.3 Virginia
Keep your Linux Mint healthy: Avoid these 10 fatal mistakes
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Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by Redact »

I've been amazed at the incredible patience shown by various mods and experts in the repeated answering of the same questions.
Do I update my kernel? Why is there a need to update kernel? etc etc.
Instead of berating those who have answered over and over, maybe we should be asking why people have not done a very simple forum search?
Thank you to those who have jumped in to help us during this rather hectic time!
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Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by Moem »

Redact wrote:maybe we should be asking why people have not done a very simple forum search?
From your lips to the Universe's ears... :roll:
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Sir Charles

Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by Sir Charles »

Redact wrote:I've been amazed at the incredible patience shown by various mods and experts in the repeated answering of the same questions.
...
Thank you to those who have jumped in to help us during this rather hectic time!
+ "+"
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Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by karlchen »

Hi, turtlebay,
I'm sorry you cannot understand this request, how many other languages do you want it written out in?
Are you trying to mock at me?
I am aware that my English is not perfect. Yet, it is absolutely sufficient to grasp the linguistic content of your posts.
I assume you have read my reply to your request, carefully: [my post above]. Would have been difficult to write it in case I had not been able to understand you due to linguistic problems.
In very brief & simple words: The instruction which you want somebody else to write already exists.

Regards,
Karl
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Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by majpooper »

Hey turtlebay answer Karlchen in Deutsch.
gld59

Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by gld59 »

Some of the ongoing confusion around this issue might be due to:

1. Changes in Mint from one version to the next.
a) Not only do Mint 17.x and 18.x have different supported kernel series, but x.2 and x.3 versions shipped with HWE kernels, so people with those are seeing only "new" kernel series.
b) The assignment of "levels" to updates changed somewhere in 18.x (18.1 to 18.2 ?). Some people offering advice don't realise this.

2. Extremely conservative advice in the past from the Mint leaders on anything to do with change, which has discouraged many people from applying as many updates as they probably should, and some from applying any updates. Mint 18.3 has (thankfully!) changed this a bit, with Timeshift available as a "safety net", and with the (partial) correction of how Update Manager shows available updates.

This result in the forums was pretty inevitable, really. Perhaps we do still need a sticky (and locked?) topic, pinned to the top of every page a newbie is likely to look!
michael louwe

Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by michael louwe »

@ gld59, .......
gld59 wrote:...
.
Yes, agree, ie lots of confusion with LM Updating.

Like they say, "Do not fix what ain't broken", ie was Update Manager broken in LM 17.x that required it to be changed/fixed in LM 18.x.?

Sometimes developers like to change things just for the sake of change, eg just to give the false impression of being modern or new. Sometimes the changes are downright bad, eg Intel's branch prediction and speculative execution in their "super-fast-performance" processors and their Remote Access ME/AMT chip-within-chip feature.
gld59

Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by gld59 »

There was nothing "broken" about manual transmission, or even about the driver having to adjust the fuel/air mix. That statement can be a valid warning against unnecessary tinkering - it can also be a fearful rejection of all change, whether that change is useful or not.

In this case, the Update Manager wasn't broken, but the changes made it more usable - kernels used to be listed in alphabetical order (so newer ones were always at the bottom of the list, requiring scrolling, until the numbering rolled into three digits and anybody reflexively scrolling couldn't find the new ones any more), the criteria by which updates were allocated to levels were different to the most recent version. I can't remember what else there was. People are still using those older versions of Mint, because they are of course still supported. You can see here that has been an issue with confusing (sometimes conflicting) advice being given. It doesn't mean the improvements shouldn't have happened.
michael louwe

Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by michael louwe »

@ gld59, .......
gld59 wrote:.There was nothing "broken" about manual transmission, or even about the driver having to adjust the fuel/air mix. That statement can be a valid warning against unnecessary tinkering - it can also be a fearful rejection of all change, whether that change is useful or not.
The change from manual transmission to automatic transmission in vehicles happened over nearly a century, ie from the days of Henry T Ford in 1908. The change in Update Manager between LM 17.x and LM 18.x happened over 2 years.
... After the introduction of automatic transmission to the world car market about 30 years ago, today, there are still new cars being offered with manual transmission, eg ... https://www.ford.com/cars/fiesta/models/fiesta-s-sedan/

In the case of Update Manager, the "improvements" in LM 18.x are quite superficial or unnecessary/not-needed or not essential, eg in LM 17.x, to scroll faster for newer kernels, you can just click-and-drag the scroll-bar to the bottom of the list.
gld59

Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by gld59 »

michael louwe wrote:The change from manual transmission to automatic transmission in vehicles happened over nearly a century, ie from the days of Henry T Ford in 1908. The change in Update Manager between LM 17.x and LM 18.x happened over 2 years.
Don't you see the problem with that argument? It's ok for the motor vehicle industry to have different technologies, with an overlap of a century, but it's somehow a problem for software to improve?
michael louwe wrote:In the case of Update Manager, the "improvements" in LM 18.x are quite superficial or unnecessary/not-needed or not essential, eg in LM 17.x, to scroll faster for newer kernels, you can just click-and-drag the scroll-bar to the bottom of the list.
But why stay like that, rather than simply fixing it so the newest kernels are at the top? It wouldn't have made any sense to not fix it.
And as for the update levels, that affects people's attitudes, so in that sense the sooner Mint 17 and 18 (because 18/18.1) reach end-of-life the better.
michael louwe

Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by michael louwe »

@ gld59, .......
gld59 wrote:But why stay like that, rather than simply fixing it so the newest kernels are at the top?
Because for LM users who are running 5 to 10 years old computers, they would prefer the oldest kernels being at the top, as in LM 1.x(= in 2006) until LM 17.x.
gld59

Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by gld59 »

Mint 18.3 (and I think 18.2) has tabs down the left for different kernel series - 4.4 (the LTS series) is selected by default. Whichever series is selected, the kernels in that series are listed with newest at the top. Isn't that what you would want? I certainly can't think of a better way to arrange it.

edit: minor correction
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Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by karlchen »

turtlebay wrote:And they are dotted about in hundreds of different threads, not set out in a sensible sequence that someone can go to for advice. Perhaps you don't mind wading through hundreds of posts with differing opinions and being thoroughly confused in the end.
I have not pointed to hundreds of different locations.
I have pointed to exactly 3 locations in my reply to your request.
I'll quote my own post here in order to facilitate retrieving its content. :wink:
karlchen wrote:After all a kernel update is just a software update like any other update as well and can be installed in the same way.
The difference is that a kernel is the core component of your Linux Mint system. If the kernel fails miserably, then your Mint will be unusable. If, however, an editor like xed fails, this will be a mere nuisance. This does, however, not change the update installation process as such.
  1. source of how to install software updates using the Update Manager is the Linux Mint User Guide, available from the Welcome Screen on your local Mint system. Also available on the Linux Mint homepage, Documentations.
    .
  2. source about which kernel updates and other updates to install, triggered by Spectre and Meltdown, is available on the Linux Mint homepage. The Security notice: Meltdown and Spectre. Currently item no. 2 on the homepage, for long time it was right at the top.
    .
  3. source about which updates to install and how is Xenopeek's post, which has been pointed to in a lot of places in different threads about Spectre and Meldown, How to update your kernel for Meltdown
    This thread had been sticky for 2 weeks, assuming that after 2 weeks every user would have learnt about Spectre and Meltdown and required counter-measures.
The kernel version strings have advanced during the past 2.5 weeks, admitted. But this is all that has changed. Do we need new tutorials for every new kernel version, which has been and which will be triggered by Spectre and Meltdown in the future? Not really?!
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Re: Meltdown Spectre Kernel Updates

Post by karlchen »

The thread How to update your kernel for Meltdown with xenopeek's initial post on top is sticky again.
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