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Moem
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Re: antivirus

Post by Moem »

On some things, yes, we certainly do. :D
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Re: antivirus

Post by ZakGordon »

One option, as hardware is cheap (and software often free), is to have a specific designated PC for malware scans. Before you move software around your systems you first scan everything on that system. Now for those that want to game online (directly in Windows or via Wine in Linux) then this obviously won't help, but for those worried about attack vectors in AV software, it is one method to avoid your concerns AND ensure you are not passing anything nasty around.

You coud setup something like a 'DMZ' and this describes the process of a few types:

https://danielmiessler.com/study/dmz/

Or you can simpy make the call to run/not run an AV and live with that choice (keeping fingers crossed) ;)
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Re: antivirus

Post by majpooper »

Kurt3162 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:41 am
Hoser Rob wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:02 am
So run WIndows via dual boot or in a VM.
Too complicated for most users, and too much hassle for frequent use (not to mention a VM requires you to pay for a Windows license).
You know what average people do when security gets too much in their way: They just break it, keys under the flower pot near the door, network password on a post-it under the keyboard, inane passwords like "password1", or, well, running Wine... :roll:
Running Windows in a VM is no more complicated then Wine in my experience, actually less complicated based on the few times I tried Wine - granted that was years ago and I never got anything to work quite right on Wine if it worked at all. And as Pjotr points out a VM is a lot safer with the bonus everything works as it should.

I am curious how you run Windows software on Windows without a license . . . legally? If you are replacing Windows you shoud already have a Windows license. Anyway, you can always run an evaluation version of Windows in you VM - legally, for free - granted it has to be re-installed every 90 days or so.
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Re: antivirus

Post by thx-1138 »

Kurt3162 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:45 am
Moem wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:04 am
Would it really get that far if it expects to land on a full installation of Windows, not something like [not even] an emulator? That depends a lot on how well-crafted it is.
Actually it only depends on if it does call functions Wine does not provide.
Heck, Win10 malware often doesn't even work on older versions of native Windows: It's called overspecialization... :roll:
Heya ppl,
i'm Benny, a voice from the distant past, Nov 21 2001.

I have something to tell you.
Do spend a few mins of your spare time to read it, you won't regret it.

If wondering which functions are called, well, check the...APIz (sic!) in the end of the asm file itself (duh!...)
Pretty standard routine stuff as you can see, nothing extraordinary.

...but hey, you were also further warned earlier above, isn'it?
Well, you are probably asking how it is possible that virus can infect Win32
;appz from Linux environment and Linux appz from Win32 environment. Yeah,
;many ppl already asked me. For instance, under some emulator. There exist
;some emulatorz (win4lin, wine etc..) which are often used to execute Win32
;appz under Linux.
I mean, it feels quite a bit awkward for me commenting on my early youth's code after almost two decades...
I'd have thought that after all this time, people would have gained a more clear view,
of just how easy it is for Linux insert-whatever-OS's-executables-here to be infected.
Especially when explicitly warned about it.
Let alone that executables' infection is not even the main threat / trend since long time now...

PS1: Looking back at it, besides the novelty factor for it's time..i'd certainly re-write the whole of it:
quite likely i'd have used Go or Rust nowadays...if nothing else, to learn those languages as well :lol:
And no, for those being suspicious, i'm not advertising "Dr. Web" (or any other self-proclaimed doctor) here:
AVs are still junk, and will always be such :wink:
Hey, even John McAfee admitted it eventually...of course, that is only after becoming a billionaire himself.

PS2:
;- Last notez -
;
;In those 18 yrs since i coded the above, way too many personal thingz
;happened to me. I’ve finished high-school, passed many examz, got
;RedHat's & CCNA certifications, learned to code asm under *nix properly,
;went on to work on numerous security firms, contributed some
;filesystem drivers in the linux kernel (and I still feel i know nothing,
;you know that feeling, heh :) Way too many things happened in the
;*nix world, and, hell hath frozen, under Wind0ze as well (WSL2, i’m
;looking at u). I do miss at moments the good ole times of 29A & writing
;viruses for the fun of it, it all went downhill in latter '00s - lots of crappy
;code out there with the sole goal of $$ & state-sponsored espionage.
;Summer i still consider the best season in the year, that's when i can
;finally rest from work, no depression, no bugfixes, no problemz.
;I still have and can’t hold them all.. c ya l8r,
;somewhere in timespace...
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Re: antivirus

Post by Moem »

thx-1138 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:58 pm
If wondering which functions are called, well, check the...APIz (sic!) in the end of the asm file itself (duh!...)
Pretty standard routine stuff as you can see, nothing extraordinary.
No, I can't. I don't know anything about code. Can you say what you're trying to tell us, but in plain English, please ('plz')?
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Re: antivirus

Post by thx-1138 »

...Moem: i'm not a programmer either. The point of the above is:
1) AV products under Linux (with or without Wine...) are snake oil crap...the 'wrong' solution to the problem.
2) That it's not really rocket science for someone to design a windows executable that could infect linux executables as well.
To make some fun of it...Benny above did it while still in highschool ;-)
Although that would certainly not be the main concern in the first place when using Wine.

I'm neither 'pro' neither 'against' using Wine per se - although i don't use such myself.
The main concern is that for the most part, it's used for running 'untrusted' code, from potentially questionable sources.

Edit, to further clarify: it doesn't really have to do with what Wine can or cannot successfully emulate per se.
It's not a matter of whether you run Windows, BSD, or MacOS executables via this or that emulation layer,
or if they are written in cross-platform Java, Mono/.NET or some similar implementation, or whatever else language.
It's a matter of whether those executables in question can be trusted in the first place, nothing more or less.
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Re: antivirus

Post by murray »

thx-1138 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:11 pm
It's not a matter of whether you run Windows, BSD, or MacOS executables via this or that emulation layer,
or if they are written in cross-platform Java, Mono/.NET or some similar implementation, or whatever else language.
It's a matter of whether those executables in question can be trusted in the first place, nothing more or less.
Exactly!

I use Wine to run two old Windows programs for which I was unable to find suitable Linux equivalents. I've used these two programs for years on Windows without any problem and they work just fine under Wine. I don't want to set up a duel-boot system just so I can use these two programs (I don't own a Windows licence which I'd need to set up a duel-boot system). Setting up a Windows VM was certainly an option and one that I would have investigated if Wine had trouble running my two programs, but since Wine runs these programs just fine I didn't have to go down the VM route.

If you're using Wine to try out lots of Windows software that you don't trust then you may very well run into virus/malware problems.
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Re: antivirus

Post by Gamemasta114 »

When I first installed LM I was also one of the ones who thought for sure I needed AV. I installed clamav and chkrootkit and promptly almost gave myself a heart attack. This was a brand new installation at the time and it was already telling me that I was infected! I barely knew how to boot into Linux at this point, nevermind how to "disinfect" it, so I drove myself crazy going from website to website to find out how to fix this. Low and behold, it was a false positive, the exact thing that many people here mention will happen. I learned my lesson that day and uninstalled any AV from Linux Mint. Honestly OP, it's just not worth the stress and hassle for a product that isn't needed at all with Linux.
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Re: antivirus

Post by Kurt3162 »

majpooper wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:41 am
Running Windows in a VM is no more complicated then Wine in my experience
There is one drawback, you have to start the VM when you need it, and also running it takes a lot more overhead than just running the program in Wine.
I never had problems with Wine. Agreed, most programs are slower, but that's only is a problem with games. The Windows programs I use are utilities, and run just fine. Guess I've been lucky?

majpooper wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:41 am
I am curious how you run Windows software on Windows without a license . . . legally? If you are replacing Windows you shoud already have a Windows license.
Who said I don't have a license? I have paid licenses of several dozens of programs I've bought over the years (using a PC since the original IBM PC).
As for the Windows OS, the problem is that OEM licenses are non-transferable (tied to the hardware), so good luck re-activating them in a VM. You need to buy a new one if you want to be legal.
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Re: antivirus

Post by thx-1138 »

...Kurt3162: i might sympathize on a certain level, but you're framing it under a wrong context & missing the point.
Kurt3162 wrote:People coming from Windows love Wine, since it allows them to keep their Windows programs, giving them the best of two worlds.
It's actually even a major selling point for deciding people to switch to Linux...

Now I admit those people aren't the intended targets of Linux, they aren't code jockeys or free software passionates,
they are just the average Joe and Jane in the streets, only interested in having a hassle-free working computer.
The average Jane & Joe (as you nicely put it), will happily run whatever executable from anywhere in the net.
Surely there is a correlation between that mentality, and the fact that the average Jane & Joe out there uses...well, Windows?
For myself...i try not to be the average Jane or Joe. I try being the average...Linux user.

If the average Jane & Joe 'defects' to Linux due to...Wine being somehow the 'selling point', then they've certainly got it wrong.
Nowadays, not even on an abstract philosophical level, but a very 'real', practical one in daily life as well:
Microsoft 'listened'...and provides people with WSL 2.
So, if that's the context that someone frames it, that's by far the...'best of two worlds'.
Gets official support as well from a multi-billion company with 120000 employees.

The main selling of point Linux, so far at least, it that it has remained a healthy ecosystem.
And that's a concept fundamentally different to...'having the cake & eating it' too,
or mix-n'matching different kinds of executable code under the same system.
It doesn't have to do with 'purity', and it's not a matter of..."intended targets of Linux".
There is no such pre-designed 'target' after all: Linux is what 'we', whatever that means, make it to be, collectively.

Linux has remained a healthy ecosystem so far, exactly due to the way software distribution is set up under it.
With all it's known drawbacks & pitfalls (and there are admittedly many), still, for the most part: that's what guards you.
You don't need AV products playing cops & robbers and...policing you,
exactly because maintainers upstream are instead following certain policies.

Windows 'defectors' usually have been conditioned to various kinds of malpractices,
carry on some very specific mentalities & rather weird ideas, especially in regards to 'security':
kernel devs frequently appear to be in their eyes...druids cooking the magic secret sauce,
sudo is somehow the 'Open Sesame' mantra that opens either Alibaba's cave or else the gates of hell, and goes on...

...that's all nice & well.
But is not the kernel's perceived 'superiority', neither that much the way permissions are set up etc,
the main thing that has kept things neat & tidy in the Linux ecosystem.
With all it's potential drawbacks, long-time issues, ideological debates & what not...still,
it is exactly the way software distribution is set up under Linux that maintains & ensures this health.

1) The majority of programs are obviously open source...
2) They are distributed in a centralized manner...
3) They are evaluated / curated by maintainers. And, Maintainers Matter.

As you see, there are some very real issues to be handled & questions to be made in regards to software's distribution.
Answers are certainly neither easy neither straightforward. However, they don't have to do with...Wine,
Wine's emulated calls & their abilities, AV placebo, running or not running Windows executables under Linux.
Every other day there is yet-another-Wine-and-or-AV thread around here,
exactly because Windows 'defectors' don't ask the proper questions in the first place.
(Should i run Wine or not...should i use an AV on top of such or not etc etc).

Compromise the above, backport certain flawed Windows-isms, and you can be 110% certain,
that security-wise at least, no kernel & no permissions will save the day for any average Jane or Joe out there.
Replace 'upstream' centralized distribution with...random apps from somewhere in the Wild West,
replace maintainers with...AV products & similar self-proclaimed 'healers' / false prophets -
and soon, way far from having "the best of both worlds", you end up with (a variation of) the...
average Jane or Joe's equally average OS & ecosystem.
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Re: antivirus

Post by lsemmens »

As our resident "Expert" Pjtor suggests. Not necessary, and for very good reasons.
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Re: antivirus

Post by thx-1138 »

...your resident "Expert" also suggested this:
viewtopic.php?p=1637725#p1637725

To be fair though, i see that in the meanwhile (due to popular demand?) he's re-evaluated ;-)

That is, without diminishing the (very much respected) overall value of his work:
most people wouldn't even bother guiding and/or explaining things in the first place.
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Re: antivirus

Post by Pjotr »

thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:53 am
...your resident "Expert" also suggested this:
viewtopic.php?p=1637725#p1637725

To be fair though, i see that in the meanwhile (due to popular demand?) he's re-evaluated ;-)

That is, without diminishing the (very much respected) overall value of his work:
most people wouldn't even bother guiding and/or explaining things in the first place.
Resident expert calling in.... :lol:

That issue is a bit off topic, because it has nothing to do with antivirus. But still: it *is* an attempt to keep alive part of the functionality of mintupdate's level system (which most of us were happy with for over a decade).

As such, I think it can substantially alleviate the burden for those of us who act as sysadmin for computer illiterates. The intention is, that the sysadmin can make sure that he, and only he, can apply the updates for those critical system parts that can cause major breakage (i.e. render a computer totally unusable).

Nifty, if it concerns the computer of your aged aunt who lives four hours' drive away from you.... Usually those updates can easily, without too much risk, wait a month or so until you pay your regular coffee visit to your old aunt.

Now I do realize that this trade-off between security and comfort won't win me any kudo's from highly security-conscious people. So be it. Life is all about making compromises. Without getting too much compromised oneself, of course. :mrgreen:

That said: I'll look into the explanatory text of that how-to, in order to try to improve it a bit....
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Re: antivirus

Post by thx-1138 »

...just nitpicking :mrgreen: :lol:

I'm not among the most pedantic & security-conscious people myself either...
compromises are unavoidable no questions asked.
On a further side note, regardless of whether i might occasionally not agree,
with your reasoning and / or proposed practice here or there,
i really can't stress enough how much i appreciate your 'hard cut' vigilance,
& constant effort at keeping certain Windows-isms outside of the gates ;-)

It appears though, especially among people who are relatively inexperienced,
that they seem to take well intentioned advice a bit way too literally at moments.
In the long run, this can lead to various distortions and potential misconceptions:
either overplaying or underplaying this or that...
Ie. people not having a wider, more clear view of why this or that should be avoided, and when.

Not sure how someone who has the patience in the first place to guide others would go around this...
people are people after all. :|
Maybe at some point link to further Linux-related blogs / sites that you like & approve,
so that your readers could expand on such?...
There's too many sites out there that are guilty of fanboy-ism, software versionitis and the likes.
It's very important for people to gain a wider view of concepts related to the Linux ecosystem as a whole.
Else, you get the same discussions here over & over again...
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Re: antivirus

Post by Kurt3162 »

thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:54 am
Surely there is a correlation between that mentality, and the fact that the average Jane & Joe out there uses...well, Windows?
It depends on what you actually mean, since the relation between ignorance and Windows isn't obvious at first glance.
I do agree there is a correlation (not necessarily implying causation), but I tend to take real-world examples, like me and my (extended) family.

I used DOS, then Windows, because that's what was readily available back then, and I liked games a lot. At the time my favorite OS (as user experience) was Irix (Sun), but first and foremost I couldn't afford it, and nothing I wanted to run for myself (think games) even closely existed on it. Due to this momentum, I stayed with Windows for years, from Win3 to Win7, because it did all I needed, allowed me to carry on my ever-growing collection of software and games, and had become utterly familiar. Then came Win 10, and the writing was on the wall: Windows was no longer an option, so I turned to Linux, which promised me a user-friendly experience. And here I am, many years later, quite satisfied, but still dragging with me the need to somehow run Windows programs, if only for work. I changed, but the world hasn't around me.

Now take my old aunt. She is totally allergic to technical stuff, and yet when she retired she decides she wanted to write a couple books and needed a text processing program for that, ergo a computer. Her need was to run MS Word (specific request of the publisher), so the obvious choice was a cheap Windows XP laptop (back then). When XP went out of support, the question was, where would she migrate to? She was barely managing to run WinXP after those years, still needed help for things like copying her files to an external disk, so it had to be simple and as close to the look & feel of WinXP as possible, which excluded Win8. So I considered setting her up with Linux Mint, and Wine was the selling point, because using MS Office was not only a mandatory requirement, it was the whole and sole point of having a computer.

thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:54 am
If the average Jane & Joe 'defects' to Linux due to...Wine being somehow the 'selling point', then they've certainly got it wrong.
See above. I'm specifically and exclusively talking about a specific demographic, defecting Windows users. Those who have lived with Windows for a while have legacy Windows apps which they want or even need to keep using. Wine allows this, and thus allows them to switch to Linux.
Why switch at all? Not because they have seen the light, but because Linux is a better choice than Win8 and now 10.

You may discard those user cases as random and/or irrelevant, but they are legion. (I'm one of those too.)

thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:54 am
Microsoft 'listened'...and provides people with WSL 2.
Beg to differ: For many the point is not to have access to a little Un*x, but to not run Windows 10.

thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:54 am
The main selling of point Linux, so far at least, it that it has remained a healthy ecosystem.
Sure, but I feel we are talking about different things here: Selling point for who? My aunt doesn't care about the healthy ecosystem, all she needs is a tool to work on her books. She doesn't really care about the label of that tool, much like she doesn't care about the brand of her car tires.

thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:54 am
"intended targets of Linux"
Code jockeys and free software advocates, I already said so. :)
Linux is clearly and obviously made by programmers for programmers, all others are tourists.

Now the question is, are those new settlers welcome, or not? They will definitely change Linux, since they have completely different requirements and needs (this discussion proves it once again), and they massively outnumber the natives. If history is an indicator this is a recipe for disaster, yet I personally think the "Distributions" system allows the freedom to cater for both worlds, without having one of them draw the short straw. Think the colonization of Americas with instances: The new settlers can freely overrun the whole continent, while the natives can keep freely hunting on the great empty plains of their ancestors - in their own instance (Distribution) of the world... :mrgreen:


Note: We've gone totally OT with this discussion. Sorry.
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Re: antivirus

Post by Pjotr »

thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:32 am
It appears though, especially among people who are relatively inexperienced,
that they seem to take well intentioned advice a bit way too literally at moments.
In the long run, this can lead to various distortions and potential misconceptions:
either overplaying or underplaying this or that...
Ie. people not having a wider, more clear view of why this or that should be avoided, and when.
True... That's indeed always a risk.
thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:32 am
Maybe at some point link to further Linux-related blogs / sites that you like & approve,
so that your readers could expand on such?...
Good tip. I'll think about that....
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Re: antivirus

Post by Pjotr »

Kurt3162 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:02 am
thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:54 am
"intended targets of Linux"
Code jockeys and free software advocates, I already said so. :)
Linux is clearly and obviously made by programmers for programmers, all others are tourists.
Untrue. You can try to prove your statement, but you won't succeed.
Kurt3162 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:02 am
Now the question is, are those new settlers welcome, or not? They will definitely change Linux, since they have completely different requirements and needs (this discussion proves it once again), and they massively outnumber the natives.
New settlers in the land of Linux are very welcome; but greenhorns can learn a lot from the old hands. And if they're wise, they do exactly that. :wink:

About writing a book: you don't need Microsoft Office for that. I myself have written a book last year, entirely in LibreOffice Writer. The publisher was OK with that. He proved to be horribly unreliable in other respects, but using LibreOffice was no problem:
https://easylinuxtipsproject.blogspot.c ... press.html

Now publishers may differ in this, I don't know. But Microsoft Office is not a general prerequisite for all publishers.
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Re: antivirus

Post by thx-1138 »

Kurt3162 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:02 am
Now the question is, are those new settlers welcome, or not? They will definitely change Linux, since they have completely different requirements and needs (this discussion proves it once again), and they massively outnumber the natives. If history is an indicator this is a recipe for disaster, yet I personally think the "Distributions" system allows the freedom to cater for both worlds, without having one of them draw the short straw. Think the colonization of Americas with instances: The new settlers can freely overrun the whole continent, while the natives can keep freely hunting on the great empty plains of their ancestors - in their own instance (Distribution) of the world... :mrgreen:

Note: We've gone totally OT with this discussion. Sorry.

:mrgreen:
I liked the above, and felt the need to re-quote it: thing is, it's not OT (out of topic) - that's exactly the point & issue(s) at stake.
And also the reason the same threads get recycled one way or another as well.

I'm personally relaxed enough to entertain various ideas -
as you saw above, i didn't dismissed usage of Wine out of the box 'in the name of...'
I don't ignore your old aunt or whatever demographic, yet:

1) The issues on the Linux desktop won't be solved overnight because people suddenly in the last couple of yrs,
realized the hard way that Win7 reaches end-of-life. Hopefully a newer blood will bring some good ideas alongside,
but i'd expect such to be a quite a bit time-consuming process.

2) It's not just a 'technical' problem - it's a social issue that MS Word was a strict request from her publisher.
All the code and/or emulators in the world can't solve social issues per se.
Ie. it doesn't really have to do much with whether your aunt is totally allergic to technical stuff,
or if she alternatively is willing to learn...eg. LaTeX at a latter age. :)
Furthermore, Office365 or Google Docs run just fine under Linux for example.
Manjaro if i recall correctly has integrated MS Office...Peppermint provides SSBs for such as i believe.
So someone can't really say that there aren't 'technical' efforts to include people from a different background.

You say...
"My aunt doesn't care about the healthy ecosystem, all she needs is a tool to work on her books.
She doesn't really care about the label of that tool, much like she doesn't care about the brand of her car tires.
"
Then why would she need...Linux & even more with Wine on top of it? Something doesn't add up the equation here.
If she doesn't care about the label, she obviously doesn't care if it is Win10, Win11, Win12 etc... :wink:

I understand just fine that you care though - else, you wouldn't be here in the first place.
You saw something that you didn't liked in Win10, and it's probably not hard to guess what.
See how the importance of a healthy ecosystem & the social aspect, as two sides of the same coin, instantly come at play?
Because there's no question that from a purely 'technical' aspect, Win10 is just fine as a 'tool':
there's no question it will get the job done just fine...and even more, natively.
It's not really a matter of grandiose abstractions or far-fetched ideals:
somewhere down the road, you literally 'hit the wall' - in the very practical sense of the term: what now?

I mean, it certainly feels weird after a certain point...
1) Win10 is no-go for what is more or less 'social' reasons: telemetry, spying, lack of privacy etc...
2) Linux receives the complaints for not being 'technically' identical / equally familiar with Win10...
3) And of course, it's the idealistic 'code jockeys and free software advocates' to...
both be blamed for such 'lack', yet, at the same time, also be requested to fix 1*...
4) While the very hard reality...& not even remotely 'idealistic' crash in 1*,
was what made people turn to 2* in the first place...

Still, among such, i don't dismiss lots of your concerns.
And i'll be perfectly direct & honest, and tell you: i do not have the answers to many of the above.
I couldn't, because i'm neither a visionary of sorts myself, and secondly,
because i strongly believe this is a collective process, a result of the interactions inside the community as a whole.
Without of course disregarding the obvious leading role certain companies play in it and money possibly involved in such:
i'm certainly not that much of an idealist...
But someone has to recognize that such issues are not just an 'upstream' decision,
because as explained, it's not just a matter of this or that technical implementation.

What I do can tell you though with 110% certainty,
is that security-related answer(s) will never ever be given by... self-proclaimed 'doctors', eg. AV companies.
They've been perfecting their detection techniques & code for 3 decades after all...hence it's easy to see the fallacy here.
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philotux
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Re: antivirus

Post by philotux »

thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:45 am
Manjaro if i recall correctly has integrated MS Office...
A side note:
Manjaro only provides a wrapper to the online MS office. Maybe that is what you meant?
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/man ... nline.html
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thx-1138
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Re: antivirus

Post by thx-1138 »

Yes - although to be perfectly honest, as i don't use it myself, Libreoffice pretty much has always had me covered,
i didn't really paid much attention myself, to either how Manjaro or Peppermint implements such / pulls it off...
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