Mint showstoppers

[qbicdesign]

getting the mic working is exactly the same behaviour as windows. double click on the sound icon in the task bar and it brings up the ALSA mixer...

[Fred]

qbicdesign,

If it makes you feel any better, Clem and company don't work in a vacuum. The forum and IRC are great sources to see where people are having problems. Every problem posted gets filtered for relevance and influences the next version. Husse does a lot of work behind the scenes doing exactly that, and Clem isn't exactly a stranger on this forum either.

Fred

[qbicdesign]

yes i know, and thats why i still post
trust me, i had enough to put me off Mint already after only 2 weeks of use, and its nothing to do with the quality of the Mint distro.
it frustrates me no end, that some members of this forum do not seem to have read or understood Mint's philsophy which the team has published on the homepage, and seem to prefer discouraging new users rather than encouraging improvements. I'm just glad i have a lot of patience. Change is here to stay, people need to get used to that.

sorry for that rant, and thanks for your encouragement.

[Fred]

qbicdesign,

Well my friend, when you set out to change the world it shouldn't surprise you that your efforts don't yield immediate results. As you get older you will learn that only time and pressure change things.

And then there is also the distinct possibility that in the process you may be changed too.

Good luck in you endeavors.

Fred

[msuggs]

it frustrates me no end, that some members of this forum do not seem to have read or understood Mint's philsophy which the team has published on the homepage, and seem to prefer discouraging new users rather than encouraging improvements..

The definition of an improvement or understanding of philosophy will always be a subjective thing. Critique and interpretation of the presented views will always be part of the process when someone suggests a new idea. You have certainly proved your resilience and determination in this regard

[deadguy]

Why can I not use a terminal? This is Linux, not Windows!

Because this thread isn't for you.

who exactly IS this thread for if not for Linux users???????

even those new to Linux will find the Terminal indispensable I think

I understand that your shooting for complete and total out of the box
functionality but, with the diversity of hardware available out there
that's nearly impossible. and that is when my very good friend "Terminal"
comes into play.

sorry for the "hijack" but I just don't get what this thread will accomplish......

[qbicdesign]

My first response is always to refer you (the reader) to the first post in the thread. and to make sure have read and understood the thread i linked to (re-read it if you have to) as its all there pretty clearly. You may not agree with it in concept, but its not here to argue Lin/Win politics, its here cos enough people want to see Mint become an even better product, and that doesn't mean adding fancy widgets and stuff, it means going back to basics and checking that no fundamentals have been missed.
This thread is totally about the user experience first impression, and ironing out the creases.
Of course, same as with windows, on occasion there is the need for extra jiggery-pokery if something doesn't work. And i do appreciate the power of terminal, but power in the wrong hands can be dangerous. Its easy for the complete novice to completely brick his system using terminal (particlularly when playing with xorg) - believe me, i've done it Mint is attracting a large number of Windows to Linux migrants and for good reason. Its free, its easy to install and use, and it does work right out of the box on most systems, but there are some holes which need to be filled, and in my (and a few others besides) opinion its just a matter in many cases of adding or tweaking gui functionality.
Because of this thread (and the other one i linked to) we have already identified some key elements missing, which have now been flagged by the Mint team for attention, so this thread has already to a large extent served its purpose. Though i fully expect us to find more as time goes by.

[FedoraRefugee]

My first response is always to refer you (the reader) to the first post in the thread. and to make sure have read and understood the thread i linked to (re-read it if you have to) as its all there pretty clearly. You may not agree with it in concept, but its not here to argue Lin/Win politics, its here cos enough people want to see Mint become an even better product, and that doesn't mean adding fancy widgets and stuff, it means going back to basics and checking that no fundamentals have been missed.
This thread is totally about the user experience first impression, and ironing out the creases.
Of course, same as with windows, on occasion there is the need for extra jiggery-pokery if something doesn't work. And i do appreciate the power of terminal, but power in the wrong hands can be dangerous. Its easy for the complete novice to completely brick his system using terminal (particlularly when playing with xorg) - believe me, i've done it Mint is attracting a large number of Windows to Linux migrants and for good reason. Its free, its easy to install and use, and it does work right out of the box on most systems, but there are some holes which need to be filled, and in my (and a few others besides) opinion its just a matter in many cases of adding or tweaking gui functionality.
Because of this thread (and the other one i linked to) we have already identified some key elements missing, which have now been flagged by the Mint team for attention, so this thread has already to a large extent served its purpose. Though i fully expect us to find more as time goes by.

ROFL!

I can't wait to see what your team of experts come up with!

[qbicdesign]

probably more than you will....

actually you hit the nail on the head.
I'm no expert, and nor do I profess to be, and thats the point.
this is a newbie approach as has been explained to you several times in this (and the other) thread
Experts will often not see the wood for the trees, or will reach for CLI without stopping to think is that acceptable behavior for a newbie or not.
Thats how we ended up with a shutdown button on the start menu in Windows.

Laughing at others who are actively trying to give constructive input into this OS is not gonna win you favour with anyone. be careful.

[msuggs]

Making a distro 'even better' is always going to be a subjective experience. I appreciate your input and your vigorous defence of your ideas, even if I don't agree with them It highlights the strength of Open Source

[FedoraRefugee]

probably more than you will....

actually you hit the nail on the head.
I'm no expert, and nor do I profess to be, and thats the point.
this is a newbie approach as has been explained to you several times in this (and the other) thread
Experts will often not see the wood for the trees, or will reach for CLI without stopping to think is that acceptable behavior for a newbie or not.
Thats how we ended up with a shutdown button on the start menu in Windows.

Laughing at others who are actively trying to give constructive input into this OS is not gonna win you favour with anyone. be careful.

Are YOU displeased with me?

Keeping newbies stupid is no solution.

acceptable behavior? Did YOU write the book?

You just want someone to fight with. I am not criticizing your efforts, they are futile at best anyway. If you want to pretend you are a developer or a consultant that is fine with me. I just use this distro, that is all. And I have no problems doing that so I dont much care what you do.

Thanks.

[deadguy]

Making a distro 'even better' is always going to be a subjective experience. I appreciate your input and your vigorous defense of your ideas, even if I don't agree with them It highlights the strength of Open Source

well said omns.
you took the words out of my mouth.

@qbicdesign,

I will be watching this thread with interest, mainly to see if "newbies" actually
do try your suggestion and post "showstoppers"
(because up to now, it's been more of a debate than anything)

interesting stuff indeed


Cheers,

Deadguy


p.s. this will be my last post here in this thread because I would never
consider trying to use all GUI and no CLI..... to me that's just unnatural
(not to mention time consuming)

[qbicdesign]

I am not criticizing your efforts, they are futile at best anyway. If you want to pretend you are a developer or a consultant that is fine with me. I just use this distro, that is all. And I have no problems doing that so I dont much care what you do.

The fact that you even bother to post in this thread disproves that. Go on, i dare you, resist the temptation to post nothing more....

[Betwixt]

It is a sad fact of life that forums, however tightly drawn in their objectives, attract naysayers and pontificators whose writings, however erudite in their own eyes, serve only to discourage rather than encourage. The following is my perspective.

When I was young I undertook with enthusiasm all the maintenance on my automobiles including rebuilding engines and gearboxes. Nowadays, although I still enjoy driving, I want the car to just work and not require me to get my hands dirty. It is the same with computers. In the early, primitive, days I would of necessity have to write my own code but now, although I build up machines for myself and family, I expect the OS to go in without resorting to CLI stuff. I'd rather just click a couple of GUI icons than research the web for CLI instructions for what should be everyday basic activities. As with cars it is not beyond me but, frankly, I have better and more interesting things to do. I don't mind if I am looked down upon by those who consider it cool to 'knit your own' - that is their problem, not mine.

I need a couple of machines with M$ for specialised software but some years ago considered Linux for everyday activities for reasons of security and reliability – as well as a view about ethical business behaviour, etc. Being techy-minded I tried a number of alternatives but all required too much work and development. Then Lindows, later called Linspire, came along and provided the answer. It has installed in under 15 mins plus another 5 for setting up and meets my everyday requirements.

Recently, needing to rebuild my wife's pc I decided to move her to Linux and chose Mint (rather than Linspire/Freespire) after recommendation and for reasons given in the About Us statement. Also, it was being regularly updated and I was curious to try a Gnome-based system. It installed and worked impressively, especially in connecting wirelessly without hassle. I like its simple, clear GUI layout. Unfortunately, however, it suffers the failure to see the other network computers - as discussed eslewhere – including my other Linux machine. I hope that is corrected in the next update because it is a small but vital failure.

I was almost tempted to consider Mint for a friend's rebuild but she needs to use a scanner. As there is no ready provision (GUI facility) for scanners in Mint it is ruled out. I find it sad that after all these years, a leading distribution can come so close to meeting all everyday needs but just fail on one or two pretty fundamental issues. I agree that resolving such basics should have priority over new features. Otherwise, the guys behind Mint have done a good job.

[FedoraRefugee]

I see all the other computers on my network with my Mint computers, and these include Vista and a Gentoo share and I didnt do anything extra special. I can use my scanner too though, so maybe it is just me?

Listen, while you are standing around waiting on them to fix it for you maybe you will run into qbicdesign...Then again, I doubt he is still around. Meanwhile, I am still here, still using Mint without any problems, and still firm in my position, misunderstood as it is.

Encourage you? Why? Discourage you? Does my opinion affect you that much? If you want help with your Linux problems why not try asking? Last I checked no OS is idiotproof. At least Linux offers free help by people that really do care and want to share their enthusiasm about this OS. But there aint no free rides in life brother.

edit: I see you did ask about the network problem and got replies in both threads. Husse is the lead go-to man here so you are in good hands. Your other thread also has a reply that I would suggest is probably the fix for you. Good luck, I really do hope you can get it going easily.

[procs321]

Threads like this one just prove what I said one year ago ... Mint keeps attracting some really weird kind of noob users. And even better: They're a clueless and thankless bunch that is unable to accept the fact that Linux is not Windows and that it will never be. But instead of embracing the challenge and accepting the free help they're offered they get aggressive against the very people trying to help them , and they start posting demands what they want changed in the OS so that it works for them (so that ultimately Linux becomes just another form of Windows ...)

Sorry for venting off.

Old-timers around here know who I am (if not: take a clue from my user name ....) so I'll just spare us any further comments

[AK Dave]

People just don't seem to understand that when you buy that craptastic computer off the discount shelf at your local Warehouse Sized Computer Store that a lot of effort went into building a gold master of Windows so that the hardware "just works" when Joe Clueless pushes the ON button.

Joe Clueless needs to try taking a random offbrand budget PC and installing Windows from scratch for once.

Do that a couple times, and even Gentoo starts to look easy to install.

[minty_explorations]

...or will reach for CLI without stopping to think is that acceptable behavior for a newbie or not.

The terminal is part of the system and a necessary tool. To assume that command line work is not needed or should be avoided is asinine. A new user SHOULD be exposed to the command line when called for and should be encouraged to use it. The command line is most often, the BEST way to solve a problem. It is perfectly acceptable in a Unix-type system to expect, even require, some command line knowledge and use to be truly "up-to-speed." If this scares a new user, then it is up to the new user to get over it or live with what they already know.

[minty_explorartions]

I was almost tempted to consider Mint for a friend's rebuild but she needs to use a scanner. As there is no ready provision (GUI facility) for scanners in Mint it is ruled out. I find it sad that after all these years, a leading distribution can come so close to meeting all everyday needs but just fail on one or two pretty fundamental issues.

Here is the perfect example of why learning is the key to success. Scanner support is quite easy to add as another user pointed out earlier:

apt-get install xsane

and agree to all the additional software the system needs to install. This could also be done in Synaptic if the GUI is your thing. Either way, a little bit of asking in a forum and you have scanner support added to your Mint.

What others are trying to point out, nothing in the computer world comes without some learning curve. Linux is not Windows and nor should it be. Expecting an out-of-the-box Linux to behave like a fully installed and pre-configured Windows off-the-shelf system is ridiculous, it ain't gonna happen.

[confused.brit]

Linux noob/windows poweruser here.

Only one real showstopper to my mint install. The network manager didnt handle my crappy USB dongle very well (based on a Realtek 8187L chip). I managed to get it connected at below 802.11b speeds but it wasnt stable. Tried a few different graphical managers but none were stable, BUT, the network tool in the control centre does work absolutely 100% rock solid 802.11g speed.

If there is some way to encourage use of that wifi manager with a graphical signal strength in the tray, that might be best. ISPs over here in the UK are giving away WIFI routers with the SSID hidden now in order to improve security, so the user needs to learn how to connect to networks that wont show in a scan.