LinuxMint 18 thoughts and discussion...

[Portreve]

I'll start this off by saying obviously I intend to upgrade to LM 18 at some point, and I'm hoping HP doesn't drag their feet in supporting my printer (again) but I also saw some things mentioned in Clem's monthly newsletter update which I want to talk about and get input from others here who are more knowledgeable in such matters...


Cinnamon 3.0
I was reading this page and saw comments to the effect that perhaps C3.0 is not a massive new release, but basically an update for bug fixes and I guess compatibility integration with newer versions of GNU+Linux distributions. I suppose that's all fine and well, but one thing I'm kind of struck by is even though they talk about more enhancements with touchpad control, et al, I have yet to find something which says they're going to fix what at least I think is a pretty obvious oversight: application of so-called "Natural Scrolling" and related features to externally-attached mice.


Mint-Y vs. Mint-X Theme
I'm completely fine with, and actually welcome, an OS offering a high degree of customizability of appearance (though I would prefer there be elements of basic underpinnings design which prevents interference with functionality). My main concern with the so-called "flat" aspect of Mint-Y, which of course remains to be seen when it's in action and not just a screenshot, is with LinuxMint, or Cinnamon generally, or GTK et al even more broadly, deciding to go the same way that Google did with Material Design. That sort of approach, in my view, started with the best of intentions but resulted in a UI that, in a word, sucked.

To be fair to Clem, et al, I will not judge until I get to use it. I just hope MD is not the kind of goal that anyone in the dev community has in mind.


The xapps Initiative
This isn't meant to be a complaint from me, but just a request for further explanation and education from others here. I remember hearing about this before, but I am really interested in understanding the actual utility value. What will this do for us that the laundry list of apps which are going to be replaced — totem, gedit, pluma, eog, eom, evince, atril, ristretto — aren't already doing?


Clem, a MacBook Pro, and Broadcom Wireless
Right. So. Clem has in his lofty executive LM offices (with big, wonderful glass walls he can look out over everywhere from) a MacBook Pro. I had no idea until he mentioned it in his monthly missive. So, Clem, here's my question for you: why the frack do we still have to fool around to get WiFi running on MBPs instead of it working natively, out-of-box, just like it does for most other on-board wireless hardware? And if I hear "license restriction" one more time I swear I'm gonna go strangle a... wally-world customer somewhere. Or a cat. What exactly is the deal? Can we please just fix this once and for all?


Codecs: The Neverending Saga
So, if I am reading things correctly, LM18 and on, in all spins, will inherently and explicitly ship without non-libre codecs, and so now everybody will have to step-and-fetch them. Is this correct? Don't get me wrong, I realize it's just one more box to tick and they'll get installed, but — and I'm not trying to be rude here — why is it I feel like we're all being punished? Yes, it's true, I've personally done my darndest to go libre only with my data, but even then that doesn't make up for DVD playback or handling non-free stuff that's an inherent part of modern day computing life. Moreover, and here's a question I've never had answered adequately to my satisfaction: If it is problematic for codecs to be bundled on install images, then how can it not be just as problematic for all these same distro providers to make available those very same codecs through repos or other means?


Anyhow, I don't mean to be crotchety, and I don't want this thread to become a rant. I just want a good discussion and some healthy input.


-Portreve

[exploder]

I can only speculate on things and offer my opinions.

Cinnamon is under constant development and the base system in use has influence on how well things work to a degree. As I understand, scrolling improved with the Ubuntu 16.04 base.

The Mint Y theme is long overdue for many of us. There is nothing wrong with Mint X but we have seen it in use for years. Including a dark version of Mint Y is also a very welcome addition, it's offers a lot less eye strain for some of us. You get the familiar Mint X by default and a couple of terrific new themes, it's a win, win situation for everybody!

Xapps look to be for consistency throughout all the editions. Some newer Gnome apps look totally out of place in some editions.

I have no clue at all about Apple hardware.....

The change with the codecs saves on countless hours of testing and building iso's.

[Pjotr]

Concerning the drivers for wireless Broadcom chipsets: blame (the licensing policy of) Broadcom. It's Broadcom that apparently doesn't allow its drivers to be added to the Linux kernel.

[Schultz]

I'm glad Mint-X will still be the default, and that those that like Mint-Y will have a choice to use. I'll even be happy if one day Mint-Y is the default so long as Mint-X is still an option. I will be greatly disappointed if one day Mint-X is dropped. I hope that's something I don't have to worry about.

[JosephM]

Ok, I'll see if I can answer a couple of these to at least some extent.

Cinnamon 3.0:

There was a good bit of work done with Cinnamon for 3.0. The problem is a lot of it doesn't really make for a cool bullet point on a feature list. Some things, like improved accessibility settings, only affect a small percentage of users but are important to those users. There were a couple of bigger "cool" features but at least one ran into a major bug and had to be held back and the other didn't really get finished until too close to the deadline. It was decided that it would be better to hold off and merge it early in the 3.2 cycle so it would get plenty of testing and refinement before getting into the hands of a large number of users. On a side note, natural scrolling is working in 3.0 and I believe it's actually the default (even though personally I hate it ).

Themes:

Mint-X is still going to be the default so nothing to worry about if you don't like the new theme style.

XApps:

So this one seems to get questioned a lot. Going into Mint18 we discovered a couple of issues. In the past we have either used the upstream Ubuntu version of a given application or pinned a version that suited our needs. Lets use Gedit here as an example. Mint has used a gtk2 version of Gedit for a long time. In the Mint18 cycle a concentrated effort was made to move many of our own tools to gtk3. This means things like HiDpi for example just work with those apps out of the box. It also means we no longer want to pin an old gtk2 version of Gedit. However the upstream version of Gedit, 3.18, is a totally new beast. Being designed more to fit with gnome shell than with a more traditional desktop style. To make matters worse Ubuntu then patches these apps to force a menubar on them to work with there own custom menu solution. That leaves us with an app that is really out of place in any of the Mint desktops. So you end up with the xapps to help fill that gap.

[Portreve]

There was a good bit of work done with Cinnamon for 3.0. {snip}

Ooh! That's cool. Thanks for posting this!

Mint-X is still going to be the default so nothing to worry about if you don't like the new theme style.

Right, that's cool; however, that wasn't my actual area of concern.

XApps {snip}

So then basically xapps are designed to be tied only to very basic stuff, like GTK, without any other added cruft.

[InkKnife]

I am excited for LM18.
I like that Cinnamon continues iterative improvements and the focus remains on stability and consistency of the user experience. Personally I don't care what the default theme is, I always theme things my way after install.
The Xapps initiative is fantastic and not just a great thing for Mint users but a real service to the Linux community at large. For a long, long time the GNOME group has provided applications that formed the core of the application stack on most Linux distros and until recently that was fine. But now GNOME has gone off in their own direction and now the library of GNOME apps have acquired or are going to acquire UIs that are dramatically inconsistent with every other dektop out there except GNOME shell.
The Xapp project may very well be the most important project Mint has ever undertaken. Not just for Mint but for the whole community. I think Clem's typical modesty plays down how very, very important the Xapp project is. We need a solid core of applications that are essentially universal and the Mint team have taken this task on. I am 100% behind the Xapp project.

[krismaguire]

I to am excited for LM18 but another topic I wanted to bring up was the upgrade path. Do we have a confirmed upgrade path from 17 to 18 or is it backup and re-install job? I haven't seen any confirmation of this anywhere.

It's a real shame about the codec but echoing others it's just an extra box to tick at install, which I now automatically do by habit every time I install an Ubuntu distribution so it's no hassle.

I think the new theme looks fantastic, I prefer darker themes (easier on the eyes), regardless I still wont use it. I have my desktop themed the way I like.

I'm using Mint on a MacBook Air and WiFi didn't work out of the box, luckily I have a USB adaptor so was able to access the net and install the driver that way. My MacBook has no ethernet port and I have no additional cables for it so would have been a problem had I not had my USB WiFi. It would be great if these drivers could be included, but understand why they can't be.

Keep up the great work Linux Mint team!

[Cosmo.]

There will be an upgrade path.

[Reorx]

I to am excited for LM18 but another topic I wanted to bring up was the upgrade path. Do we have a confirmed upgrade path from 17 to 18 or is it backup and re-install job? I haven't seen any confirmation of this anywhere.

From the Segfault Cinnamon 3.0 release announcement >>>

upgrade_path.png

[krismaguire]

I to am excited for LM18 but another topic I wanted to bring up was the upgrade path. Do we have a confirmed upgrade path from 17 to 18 or is it backup and re-install job? I haven't seen any confirmation of this anywhere.

From the Segfault Cinnamon 3.0 release announcement >>>

upgrade_path.png

There will be an upgrade path.

Fantastic, thanks for the confirmation. Looking forward to it even more now!

[Crewp]

+1 InkKnife

[thom_A]

I'm looking forward to the improved graphics the devs are talking about in the next release, which presumably be May-June this year. I'm in no rush as I'm not having real major problems in the current build or version.

[Portreve]

The whole of LM17.x has been, for me, just fine. I've installed it on four different friends' computers in addition to mine, and thus far there have been no complaints, just high praise.

[samriggs]

I'm excited about lm18 myself.
As far as the theme goes I don't really care let the majority rule in that one, not a big fan of flat basic look some of it looks way to cartoony for my likes but as long as it clean and nice, besides that I theme my own anyhow, so again let the majority rule.
I'm also a fan of xapps as long as they work I'm a happy camper, although for a text editor I still just use leafpad.
but xapps might be an avenue I might look into getting into the future if I find some time.
My only concern was my amd laptop but I tested it with ubuntu 16 and it works so looks like I'm in the clear.
I can only imagine the work that goes into the xapps project, that is a huge undertaking and koodos the team for taking it on after gnome went sideways

[Habitual]

My stuff works, so I have no plans to "runn oft" and try some shiny.

[1.618]

Mint 17 has been really stable for me but my pc has an AMD gpu so I won't be able to use 18 as the flgrx drivers are now defunct and I'm not seeing a lot on the ubuntu forums about success in 16.04 hopefully there will be progress from AMD around mid autumn so maybe I'll be able to do something then. (sad face)

17 has been stable on my laptop as well and that's not AMD it's going to get upgraded to 18. Looking forward to seeing the new theme and improvements overall, a fresh mint install is always a treat! (happy face)

[samriggs]

Mint 17 has been really stable for me but my pc has an AMD gpu so I won't be able to use 18 as the flgrx drivers are now defunct and I'm not seeing a lot on the ubuntu forums about success in 16.04 hopefully there will be progress from AMD around mid autumn so maybe I'll be able to do something then. (sad face)

17 has been stable on my laptop as well and that's not AMD it's going to get upgraded to 18. Looking forward to seeing the new theme and improvements overall, a fresh mint install is always a treat! (happy face)

you can test it the live usb to see if it accepts it or not, I was worried also with my amd but it worked fine but others tested it and all they got was a black screen with the live usb.
I was talking it over with the wife last night and decided I'll stick with 17.3 either way now, it's good till 2019 and by then I should have my new asus anyhow with intel and nvidia.
If it ain't broke don't fix it, right now it works good so I'm leaving it alone just in case.

[Hoser Rob]

Clem, a MacBook Pro, and Broadcom Wireless
Right. So. Clem has in his lofty executive LM offices (with big, wonderful glass walls he can look out over everywhere from) a MacBook Pro. I had no idea until he mentioned it in his monthly missive. So, Clem, here's my question for you: why the frack do we still have to fool around to get WiFi running on MBPs instead of it working natively, out-of-box, just like it does for most other on-board wireless hardware? And if I hear "license restriction" one more time I swear I'm gonna go strangle a... wally-world customer somewhere. Or a cat. What exactly is the deal? Can we please just fix this once and for all?

What in the frakking hell makes you thnk the linux support problems found with many Broadcom wireless cards ... which I have experienced ... are Clem's fault? Mint is either Ubuntu or Debian based and they do the backports. Hardware support is the biggest problem with Linux in general, and it isn't any distro's fault.

Codecs: The Neverending Saga
So, if I am reading things correctly, LM18 and on, in all spins, will inherently and explicitly ship without non-libre codecs, and so now everybody will have to step-and-fetch them. Is this correct? Don't get me wrong, I realize it's just one more box to tick and they'll get installed, but — and I'm not trying to be rude here — why is it I feel like we're all being punished? Yes, it's true, I've personally done my darndest to go libre only with my data, but even then that doesn't make up for DVD playback or handling non-free stuff that's an inherent part of modern day computing life. Moreover, and here's a question I've never had answered adequately to my satisfaction: If it is problematic for codecs to be bundled on install images, then how can it not be just as problematic for all these same distro providers to make available those very same codecs through repos or other means?

So you install mint-meta-codecs or whatever they'll call it. Big frakking deal. Stop your stupid whining.

Anyhow, I don't mean to be crotchety, and I don't want this thread to become a rant...

Well, it started as a rant. And not a good one.

[altair4]

So you install mint-meta-codecs or whatever they'll call it. Big frakking deal.

Always nice to hear from another Battlestar Galactica fan.