Linux Mint may be too fiddly for my continued use

[Discipula]

Hi All,

I'm a very late middle-aged guy who does virtually all of his research using computers. I consider said computers as tools and not entertainment or a hobby. I'm rarely prone to much tinkering with them and, truth be known, I pretty much hate them.

A few months ago I began the construction of a new machine for deep learning artificial neural networks. For completeness sake, I note the following components, to wit:
ASUS X99-E WS USB 3.1 mobo
i7 5930k mpu
64 Gb ram
Two HGST 3G hdd
Samsung 950 Pro SSD 512Gb
Tesla S1070 modular unit, 4X GPUS 16Gb video mem (old system)
et al

As the machine is nearing completion (it took several months to accumulate the parts) I had to make some choices regarding OS. I actually hate Microsoft more than I hate computers but I've mostly used Windows out of necessity. But on this machine I have found that the software I need for my research is available in both Linux and Windows versions. Overjoyed, I purchased a copy (on DVD) of Linux Mint Cinnamon ver 17.3, installed it and began learning the basics.

Over the last month I have appreciated said Linux software support, it elegance, it's clever use of memory for both storage and computation and more than anything else, the terrific community that comes with it. That being said, I'm afraid I am again at a decision point regarding operating systems.

I have come across a problem to which I have received dozens of suggestions/advice, all of which either failed to resolve the problem or were too risky. My personal research on the problem has spanned numerous archives, reference books and forums. I found lots of answers but none of them worked. I keep getting the terminal error statement 'This PPA does not support trusty' .

Once I receive that error code nothing else happens, the command is dead. Unfortunately, I see no way to fix the problem and I need some of the software from "not trusty compliant" PPAs and there is no getting around it. If I bypass Software Manager and download these packages, I have no way to determine if they are safe. I cannot afford to download anything that may result in loss or corruption of my research data.

So, I have purchased a new copy of Windows 8.1 Pro 64 (the drivers for the Tesla have not been updated for Win 10) and once it arrives I will load it onto the new machine. However, I have not decided on whether to dual boot with Linux Mint or dump it. I'm quite frustrated with the lack of a simple alternative to the "trusty" situation and very frustrated with Mint team for failing to put some form of dialogue in the Software Manager that allows someone to override "trusty" with an additional means to review online the ACTUAL trustworthiness of the site that is being denied. This can't be the first time that a new user of Linux Mint has encountered this frustrating "deal killer"!

I know the Mint folk are busy, but IMHO, this is a rather dumb thing to have overlooked. I've had other frustrations with Mint but that is to be expected from a new (to the user) operating system. But this one is a doozy as far as I'm concerned. I MUST be able to download what I need without a great deal Linux terminal gymnastics which I have little time for. Thank you for reading through this long, boring post. Those of you that have, I would appreciate any thoughts you may have on the situation. I still like Linux Mint for a lot of reasons but this may be the end of it for me!

Best Regards,
Discipula

[Moem]

I would not describe this as 'fiddliness' of any kind. But to each their own.
Anyway, good news may be around the corner. Mint 18 is coming out VERY soon (beta releases are already available) and it's not based on Trusty, but on Ubuntu 16.04 LTS (Xenial Xerus).

Still there is and will always be a risk involved with adding PPAs. If you feel that you need these PPAs, yet you cannot accept that risk, you have gotten yourself pretty much stuck. My solution would be to have a spare machine to test things on, so I could add these possibly unreliable PPAs without any risks to my data. Maybe that's an option for you, too.

Another thought: people here may be able to help you better if you tell us which PPAs are involved.

[Cosmo.]

I keep getting the terminal error statement 'This PPA does not support trusty' .

Once I receive that error code nothing else happens, the command is dead.

Linux Mint 17.x is based on Ubuntu 14.04 codename trusty. If the PPA does not provide a version for trusty, obviously nothing will happen, if you try to install something from this PPA.

You did not say, what kind of software you are looking for. There is the chance, that anybody knows an alternative, but an alternative for what?
The PPA you tried to use would also be an information of interest.

So please be more detailed in your information.

[JosephM]

I'm quite frustrated with the lack of a simple alternative to the "trusty" situation and very frustrated with Mint team for failing to put some form of dialogue in the Software Manager that allows someone to override "trusty" with an additional means to review online the ACTUAL trustworthiness of the site that is being denied.

This actually has nothing to do with a poor decision by the Mint devs or the trustworthiness of a particular site. What you're running into is a fundamental difference between Linux distros and Windows. On Linux all your applications are built against a set of shared libraries on your system. Those libraries are at particular versions on specific versions of the Linux distro. When a new version of a distro is released it carries new versions of those libraries which can bring changes. You do not want to install versions of the application that are built against another version of those libraries.

[fungus]

You do not mention anything about what software you are having problems with installing, but many times it is possible to download stuff as a *.deb installation archive instead of using custom (shady) PPA's. If you are absolutely certain that you cannot run the software on Linux Mint you might have made the wrong choice of distro from the beginning.

A tip: If you have a perfectly nice system that you do not want to ruin with shady PPA's or unsafe downloads I'd recommend that you use some sort of virtualization to run a "garbage system" on top of your minty OS. Applications like VirtualBox makes it possible to install an entire OS as an app in Linux (Mint). You can then boot up the "garbage system" like it was an application and install all the nastyness you can get your hands on in the virtual system without risking your primary (host) system to get screwed up.

In your case it would seems like the optimal sollution to install the OS that your software was developed for as a virtual system. You can read more about virtualization here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtualization and you can get VirtualBox from here: https://www.virtualbox.org

[MintBean]

You are trying to install software that was not designed for your OS and the update manager is (quite rightly) blocking you from doing that.

Find a version of the PPA for Ubuntu Trusty, add that and remove the current (incompatible) PPA.

[AndyMH]

I'm more than a little bit past late middle age and have various 'shady' software that is running quite happily on my system. Played with linux in the past but basically been mainstream windows (since it was first released) and before that originally CP/M and then DOS (which was not as good as CP/M, but that's drifting off topic). Been using mint for the best part of six months. Its been a steep learning curve and it continues. I've downloaded debs and compiled from source, got stuff from 'non approved' ppas, translated from rpms. Guess what, yes, I've broken my system more than once (and I've done the same in windows). The key word is BACKUPS. So go ahead, if the software you need is available for linux, install it from whatever source you can get it. If it trashes your system or corrupts your data (not sure I understand how it would do this), you lose the time it takes to do a restore. If you lose anything other than a little time in the process, that's your fault, not the OS.

Not happy with that, or can't get it to work, then go dual boot. I'm dual boot with win7, but the instances I've booted into windows over the last few months can be measured on the fingers of one hand. Now it is only for applications that I can only get under win, e.g. Corel Draw (not that there aren't equivalent apps under linux, simply that I've used it since v1 and don't want to learn something new). This is not black or white, you can have both.

Do not dump an outstanding OS on the basis of a small number apps you can't easily get. Revert to windows entirely and you will not get anything close to the level of support (free or paid) that you get for linux and mint in particular - something you acknowledge in your post.

Final thought... You want to use Windows 8??????

[jimallyn]

You mention that you have done research for a solution, but since your above post is the FIRST and ONLY post you have made on the forums, clearly your research did not include these forums, where there are experts with solutions to most problems, and where people are always glad to help if they can. How about giving us a clue what software you're having trouble with? Somebody may have knowledge of a solution, or somebody might compile the needed software from source for you, or who knows what.

[phd21]

Hi "Discipula",

Welcome to the wonderful world of Linux Mint and its excellent forum !

I just read your post and the good replies to it. Here are my thoughts on this as well.

It would help to know more about your system setup. If you run "inxi -Fxzd" from the console terminal prompt, highlight the results, copy and paste them back here, that should provide enough information.

As pretty much everyone else has already stated, it helps to be specific about what software you are trying to install, and how. Sometimes there are more than one PPA available for certain software and they can be for specific versions of Linux Mint (Ubuntu), there might also be the easy to install ".deb" files available as well. Also, since Ubuntu 16 came out, and Linux Mint is upgrading to v18, there are some issues because some PPA's have already updated to use the newer versions of Ubuntu.

I do not know if you have already done this, but I usually recommend to new people coming to Linux Mint, to try the various main editions, Cinnamon, Mate, KDE, & Xfce, to see which edition works best for your hardware and that you like the most.


Hope this helps ...

[Discipula]

Hi All,

Thank you for the informative and helpful posts.I have had time to speak with colleagues working in the same area and it seems they have settled on Windows 8.1 or Windows 10, after some forays into linux, to run the artificial neural network software for both the Tesla and the Titan-X. It seems that the folks who tried Linux found difficulty with both the linked display drivers as well as the neural node software.It appears that it takes a lot of work to keep everything behaving with CUDA and cuDNN. it also seems there is more development with Windows and OSX than with linux in any form.

I'm kind of sad because I like Linux Mint for a lot of reasons. However, I do not have the time to ask for help everytime I get an error code like I discussed previously. Rather than looking into how to fix the five or 10 of them i'd get a day, I'm going to default to the easier....read...faster windiows interface. I'm not a programmer and only do it under duress. Therefore, I'm of little use to your community and feel bad for taking so much of your time.

I received a lot of useful suggestions and I will apply them when I work with linux just for the experience of it. I will leave mint in my dual boot system just for the sake of being able to use it now and then The individual PPAs are on a list outside in back in my lab and i'm too lazy and too cold to go back to the lab in the rain to get the list. I found out later that the linux-based node software is poorly supported because it is written by guys like me.

You all have a terrific community with very helpful people, I've found that with linux mint everywhere i went, not just this forum. You all are very supportive and cooperative. I feel a bit guilty for bringing this up and then taking the path of least resistance with Windows, But time is the killer in this business and the more of the side issues that don't have to be dealt with, the faster I reach my objectives. You all should be very proud of your accomplishments!
Thank you again, the best to all of you who responded!
Best Regards,
Discipula

[Discipula]

Hi All,

Actually, after having received so many folks well thought out responses, I have decided to putter around with Mint without expecting it to perform in the world of artificial neural nets. The reason why the PPAs were so obscure is that they have turned out to be mostly one-off pieces of software with little mainstream use. So, as it turns out, my difficulty accessing them was probably a blessing,

I have moved Mint to one of my smaller computers in the lab. There it will take up residence with Windows 10 which I essentially had to nearly eviscerate to get out all of the microspy software. Geeeez, that thing is riddled with it. There are several packages coming out to do what I have done manually and would be a good investment on dual boot systems.I don't like that microspy can look at other software that is not even Windows-based. In other words peeping in on Linux, etc.If i had wanted them sharing information I would have enabled that "option"!

One person noted that he too was over the "middle-aged" hump and had cut his teeth on CPM and DOS. I cut mine on DOS, BASICA and Visual Basic, And for all of their weaknesses, they did exactly what you told them too without any BS. They were clear logical and powerful. Unfortunately, their extended memory handling sucked and was limited by the limited vision at the time. For better or worse, Gates got his hands on the rights to CPM and Windows was born a few years later. We all laughed at it because it was so crippled and DOS with Visual Basic could kick its butt. We weren't laughing in a few years,

Linux is an excellent community response to Windows. However it would definitely benefit from a bit more "paid vision" in order to see where it can and should go. I would pony up some more bucks over time if Linux made some efforts to professionalize its development cycle. The folks now are doing a great job. But there are so many areas where Windows falls on its butt that Linux's native power could run circles around it, But it takes people better than me to say "let's focus on the scientific/business community's latest areas. Lets see what we can do better than Windows at a 20th of the cost. A good example is Windows Enterprise! An over-priced, bloated software concept blob that does little more than network and cost lots!

I learned that the reason I couldn't access some PPAs was because trusty didn't allow it. I further learned that this wasn't just about bad software, it was about the way new software handled shared libraries and how running these could completely destabilize systems so they needed clearance thru trusty. As I read what many of you wrote I realized there are some some very intelligent and talented Linux people and that a bit more cohesion and group effort and Linux could become unbeatable in many areas & disciplines. Most of us in the research community dislike Microsoft and its Facebook-like behavior! We live and die by our information and it IS NOT THERE FOR MICROSOFT TO CULL FOR ITS PROFIT!!

IMHO this shared library situation is actually a vulnerability. This is where enforced standards come into play and it would virtually eliminate unapproved PPAs. A large, professional central review, clearing and approving body would eliminate all impediments to stomping Microsoft and to strongly attract people like me to use Linux as my primary research OS. I love how fast it runs on my big system doing in milliseconds what takes Windows seconds to accomplish. You should see how fast natural language processing is running on a small neural net routine under Linux. I have to increase my fan's RPM, optimize the water cooling and turn-on the external Peltier cooling unit when it runs full bore! It's a shame that the software needed to do real-time, distant voice collection (it's how computers learn to listen and speak back without a human having to be talking deliberately into a microphone...more natural) isn't able t0 run under Linux Linux could accomplish the task much simpler from what I've seen of various subroutines and modules. I suspect I would either run a lot cooler or get a lot more done for a given data set!

The newer Windows appears intended to strengthen Microsoft's hold on the computer world.It wants to subjugate all of us into paying a monthly fee for the pleasure of them raiding (raping) our data. Linux Mint has much more solid aspirations AND protections. As I said previously, I am very fond of Linux Mint and think for people interested in staying in the current PPA world, it is just fine. For my system, it is necessary that it is able to write its own routines on the fly to assist it in its primary goal of learning to speak and understand English indistinguishable from a human being, For that to happen, it must be able to go onto the Internet on its own, find open databases, read them, understand them, learn and move on. Currently it looks at YouTube, modern movies and millions of "chat" conversations. I'm now focusing more on english as it is used "in motion" and in English as it is used by native speakers to non-native speakers.

You all have been terrific and I found none of the excessive rudeness and inconsideration often directed at new users. Instead everyone seemed marvellously patient and I reckon virtually any one of you would be terrific instructors. In fact, one day you may be teaching one of my machines and never know that is not actually a typical noob making typical noob mistakes (but a shockingly quick learner )

Thank you all again. I will be back to ask some questions and hopefully be around to help someone else. Who knows, in a couple of months my machine may be answering posts and giving advice. (actually would be a terrific test)!

Best Regards,
Discipula

[Zill]

... I learned that the reason I couldn't access some PPAs was because trusty didn't allow it. I further learned that this wasn't just about bad software, it was about the way new software handled shared libraries and how running these could completely destabilize systems so they needed clearance thru trusty.

I think you misunderstand what "trusty" means in this context - it has nothing to do with "trustworthiness"!.

Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu and so, behind every Linux Mint release, there is a related Ubuntu release. As both Mint and Ubuntu releases are upgraded to a later version, it is necessary to identify which release we are talking about and so both Mint and Ubuntu use names as well numbers as names are more "memorable".

Ubuntu release names are based on animals and so Ubuntu 14.04 LTS is also known as "Trusty Tahr", or "Trusty" for short. See "List of Ubuntu releases" for the entire list.

Linux Mint release 17.x is based on Ubuntu 14.04 and therefore has a "Trusty" Ubuntu base. See "List of Linux Mint releases" for the entire list.

Each Linux release uses a system of shared libraries that all work together to produce a stable system. Then, when a new release is produced, it will use a similar set of shared libraries but note that these will be different versions to the earlier release(s).

When someone produces a PPA, this must be written for a specific Mint/Ubuntu release, otherwise there may well be incompatibilities with shared libraries and other system files which may result in system breakage.

So, to summarise... As you have installed Linux Mint 17.3 (Rosa), which is based on Ubuntu 14.04 (Trusty Tahr), this means that you need a PPA specifically intended for use on this release.

[fungus]

I don't like that microspy can look at other software that is not even Windows-based. In other words peeping in on Linux, etc.If i had wanted them sharing information I would have enabled that "option"!

As I mentioned earlier you can use virtualization to run Windows as a guest system on a Linux host. When doing so Windows is unable to "spy" on the host system (Linux) and the data it contains. If you are using dual-boot all other partitions containing other systems, programs and data will be exposed to Windows unless you physically unplug drives that should not be exposed to Windows (problem if both systems are on same drive, though).

I wish you good luck with finding the correct mixture of neurons and synapses to get it working!

[Discipula]

... I learned that the reason I couldn't access some PPAs was because trusty didn't allow it. I further learned that this wasn't just about bad software, it was about the way new software handled shared libraries and how running these could completely destabilize systems so they needed clearance thru trusty.

I think you misunderstand what "trusty" means in this context - it has nothing to do with "trustworthiness"!.

Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu and so, behind every Linux Mint release, there is a related Ubuntu release. As both Mint and Ubuntu releases are upgraded to a later version, it is necessary to identify which release we are talking about and so both Mint and Ubuntu use names as well numbers as names are more "memorable".

Ubuntu release names are based on animals and so Ubuntu 14.04 LTS is also known as "Trusty Tahr", or "Trusty" for short. See "List of Ubuntu releases" for the entire list.

Linux Mint release 17.x is based on Ubuntu 14.04 and therefore has a "Trusty" Ubuntu base. See "List of Linux Mint releases" for the entire list.

Each Linux release uses a system of shared libraries that all work together to produce a stable system. Then, when a new release is produced, it will use a similar set of shared libraries but note that these will be different versions to the earlier release(s).

When someone produces a PPA, this must be written for a specific Mint/Ubuntu release, otherwise there may well be incompatibilities with shared libraries and other system files which may result in system breakage.

So, to summarise... As you have installed Linux Mint 17.3 (Rosa), which is based on Ubuntu 14.04 (Trusty Tahr), this means that you need a PPA specifically intended for use on this release.

[Discipula]

... I learned that the reason I couldn't access some PPAs was because trusty didn't allow it. I further learned that this wasn't just about bad software, it was about the way new software handled shared libraries and how running these could completely destabilize systems so they needed clearance thru trusty.

I think you misunderstand what "trusty" means in this context - it has nothing to do with "trustworthiness"!.

Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu and so, behind every Linux Mint release, there is a related Ubuntu release. As both Mint and Ubuntu releases are upgraded to a later version, it is necessary to identify which release we are talking about and so both Mint and Ubuntu use names as well numbers as names are more "memorable".

Ubuntu release names are based on animals and so Ubuntu 14.04 LTS is also known as "Trusty Tahr", or "Trusty" for short. See "List of Ubuntu releases" for the entire list.

Linux Mint release 17.x is based on Ubuntu 14.04 and therefore has a "Trusty" Ubuntu base. See "List of Linux Mint releases" for the entire list.

Each Linux release uses a system of shared libraries that all work together to produce a stable system. Then, when a new release is produced, it will use a similar set of shared libraries but note that these will be different versions to the earlier release(s).

When someone produces a PPA, this must be written for a specific Mint/Ubuntu release, otherwise there may well be incompatibilities with shared libraries and other system files which may result in system breakage.

So, to summarise... As you have installed Linux Mint 17.3 (Rosa), which is based on Ubuntu 14.04 (Trusty Tahr), this means that you need a PPA specifically intended for use on this release.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. Initially that's exactly what I thought but I then thought it would be a bit corny. So, reading around a bit, it did finally dawn on me that "trusty" was a name and not a characteristic,

The PPA issue became even more annoying a few hours ago. It seems it even affected my ability to download an app that would allow me to get my news and tech channels on the BRAND NEW lab tv! Those channels I download from an Internet router via shared net connection and use streaming translation software to convert it. I'm pretty much over fiddling with it at the moment and after a couple of more things I want to try. Im done fiddling with Mint as well it for a bit. But never fear, I'll stick with it as I sincerely believe one of you clever ladies or gentlemen will find a way to rid Linux of that dammm manual dependency/complexity.

When I was looking for a solution to the "PPA does not support trusty" issues, I found literally hundreds of complaints online about. It is obviously grating on ''people's nerves. Regardless of whether or not it's seen as "just part of being a Linux user" by the pros it is definitely seen as a serious defect and possibly one reason why the big boys don't do much with Linux Itself. I am no software engineer but I can say that something is clearly a problem when something blocks, new, safe, functional software from being loaded because whomever set Linux standards was unable test the combination.

'
A few words to summarize and clarify my point, to wit:

It would be awesome if, In my VERY humble opinion, one or more of the many many obviously talented programmers on this board would be willing to attack the problem head-on! I KNOW it would be a monstrous undertaking, but it could make it a serious challenger to Windows, wresting away ,its hold as the goto Operating System!

[Hoser Rob]

... It would be awesome if, In my VERY humble opinion, one or more of the many many obviously talented programmers on this board would be willing to attack the problem head-on! I KNOW it would be a monstrous undertaking, but it could make it a serious challenger to Windows, wresting away ,its hold as the goto Operating System!

Good luck ... if you want a distro with those guys in the support forums try Gentoo. Devs rarely seem to read these sorts of sites.

The PPA issue doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with Mint, or the Ubuntu system it's based on. The problem is that in Linux you can't expect software that was written for old releases and then abandoned to work. If fact abandonware usually doesn't work. And if the original devs gave up no one else is likely to want to tackle it. This is a Linux issue not a Mint one.

[Hugh Garse]

The PPA issue doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with Mint, or the Ubuntu system it's based on. The problem is that in Linux you can't expect software that was written for old releases and then abandoned to work. If fact abandonware usually doesn't work. And if the original devs gave up no one else is likely to want to tackle it.

Exactly. The PPA OP is attempting to use was not developed for Ubuntu Trusty distro, thus it doesn't work. Linux Mint (well Ubuntu really) is doing precisely what it should be doing when an incompatible installation is attempted.

OP's issue should be with the developers of the apps he needs to use, not with Linux developers.

This is a Linux issue not a Mint one.

Not really a Linux problem per se, the issue lies directly with the developers of the bespoke application attempting to be installed/run.

Suggest OP try and find out which specific Linux distro(s) this PPA was developed for. A possible solution may be to install the correct Linux distro into a VirtualBox VM, hosted within Linux Mint, and run their bespoke applications from there.

Solution might be as simple as installing a previous version of Mint or Ubuntu, or your PPA may use a completely different non Debian based distro altogether.

[mivat]

Linux is an excellent community response to Windows. However it would definitely benefit from a bit more "paid vision" in order to see where it can and should go. I would pony up some more bucks over time if Linux made some efforts to professionalize its development cycle.

I think we need to distinguish Linux server products and desktop products. While server products got their place, professional desktop products are scarce to virtually non existent in some fileds. In mathematics / statistics we got some common proprietary software but if you are in need of CAD software, Webdesign, trading software, speech to text or even just a standard in office applications you are in need of windows or mac os. Some can be used via wine or virtualized but it often isn't an optimal solution. It's not really anyones fault, the market supplies where the demand is.

I like a fast, slim, secure and stable OS and also love to tinker and that's the reason why I use linux. I use wine for my trading software and run ms word 2013 with duden corrector and nuance dragon naturallyspeaking in virtualbox (win7) which works fine with enough horse power. I play games on my dual boot with win10. While I have no problem with this setup obviously it's far from looking professional.

There is a lot good working proprietary software out there people use to make money and therefore have no problem paying for it. But there is no real urgend need to use this software on another OS and so I understand developers don't like to code for another OS.

Imo the application area for Linux is servers, to some degreee research, small offices (as long as you are fine with pdf and don't need 100% compatibility with ms office products) and my mom's computer

[Hugh Garse]

Hopefully the whole Linux software availability / compatibility / reliability issue will be greatly improved in the near future with the broad adoption of snap apps across many popular Linux distros.

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... verywhere/

Having a single application packaged as a snap, as opposed to a package within a specific distro package management framework, will hopefully mean it will be able to be easily installed and run on all Linux distros supported snapd.

Will Mint 18 support snap packages?

[Cosmo.]

it will be able to be easily installed and run on all Linux distros supported snapd.

With it's pro and cons read here.