To upgrade, or not?

All Gurus once were Newbies
Forum rules
There are no such things as "stupid" questions. However if you think your question is a bit stupid, then this is the right place for you to post it. Please stick to easy to-the-point questions that you feel people can answer fast. For long and complicated questions prefer the other forums within the support section.
Before you post please read how to get help
Post Reply
Jaydemir
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:53 pm

To upgrade, or not?

Post by Jaydemir » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:02 pm

So Mint 18 is out and it looks great from what I've seen. I have my concerns however;

Since the release of Ubuntu 16.04, I've tried several variants of it and have found them all to be far less stable than 14.04. Issues with the mouse disappearing with screenwake, crashes, etc.

Considering Mint 17.3 was hailed FAR better than its predecessors, should I wait for 18.3 to come out before upgrading?

User avatar
administrollaattori
Level 15
Level 15
Posts: 5887
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:51 am
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by administrollaattori » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:35 am

I am happy user with Mint 13 and Mint 17.2 .. :wink:

User avatar
MintBean
Level 9
Level 9
Posts: 2967
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:54 am
Location: Blighty

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by MintBean » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:49 am

I would say if you want to move to 18, now is as good a time as any, or maybe wait until the in-place upgrade option becomes available in MintUpdate in a few weeks if you want a less hassle path.

User avatar
Chiefahol
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 473
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 12:32 am

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by Chiefahol » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:20 am

If it works, don't $%#! with it, might be good advice.
Donate to your favourite distros!

Cosmo.
Level 23
Level 23
Posts: 17830
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:34 am

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by Cosmo. » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:38 am

To be honest:
Mint 18 is far from being as stable, as LM 17.3 (or its predecessors) are. There are still unresolved bugs, some annoying, some show stoppers.
I don't want to give a recommendation in this regard, but on my production system Sarah will not replace Rosa (except she would get adult).

I personally am disappointed.

User avatar
MintBean
Level 9
Level 9
Posts: 2967
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:54 am
Location: Blighty

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by MintBean » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:54 am

@Cosmo - interested to know what the show-stoppers are for you and whether they're general or hardware specific?

Hoser Rob
Level 15
Level 15
Posts: 5591
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:57 am

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by Hoser Rob » Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:36 am

Yes, at this stage Mint 18 will have more bugs than 17. That's why many Ubuntu users wait for the x.04.1 edfition. Just like knowledgeable Windows users will wait for the first service pack.

But you can't say Mint 18 will be worse because ubuntu 16.04 has issues on your machine without saying what problems and with what hardware. It may be just simple comfig thing.

If you have an AMD video card I'd definitely wait though. Their linux support appears to be in a state of limbo. Hopefully this means it'll improve.

User avatar
JoeFootball
Level 7
Level 7
Posts: 1911
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:52 pm
Location: /home/usa/mn/minneapolis/joe

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by JoeFootball » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:29 am

Jaydemir wrote:So Mint 18 is out and it looks great from what I've seen. I have my concerns however; ... Considering Mint 17.3 was hailed FAR better than its predecessors, should I wait for 18.3 to come out before upgrading?
Linux Mint 17.x will be supported until April 2019. Unless you can come up with a compelling reason to upgrade to LM 18, it sounds like LM 17.3 is serving your needs quite well, and will continue to do so for nearly the next three years.

That said, you can certainly try LM 18 without giving up on LM 17.3. There's the option of trying out LM 18 via a live session, or in a VM, or if you have the disk space, allocate a partition or two to run a new LM 18 deployment along side you current LM 17.3 deployment.

Note that the live and VM options will probably present a slower environment experience, so take that into account in your assessment should you go that route.

Joe

Cosmo.
Level 23
Level 23
Posts: 17830
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:34 am

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by Cosmo. » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:56 am

MintBean wrote:@Cosmo - interested to know what the show-stoppers are for you and whether they're general or hardware specific?
As far as I found until today:
  • - Much extended boot time and time for login compared with LM 17.3 in the same environment (VM) - following other reports hardware dependent, although I don't see the specific reasons, why this happens in a VM.
    - Splash screen not working (does in LM 17.3) - most likely hardware dependent, but again, I wonder why in a VM?
    - Bug in Language Tool which reports not existent broken packages - not hardware depend, but most likely for very most users not noticeable
    - Missing version number for the update - absolutely harmless, but should not happen, as already reported
    - Y-Themes do not fully support Cinnamon options - not hardware dependent, this is about the additional icons in the title bar
    - Removing favorites and system icons bar from the menu needs mostly a restart of Cinnamon - harmless and not hardware dependent, but a already reported bug, as re-adding the bar works without the need of a Restart of Cinnamon
    - Strange and erroneous driver reports in the driver manager in a VM
    - Nemo Preview not usable, because the Cinnamon GUI gets unreadable after using it - probably hardware dependent, but a show stopper
    - Font Viewer only with tricks launchable and not really usable - a show stopper
    - Wrong menu entry after installing OCRFeeder - noticed by accident, there may be more, because the reason for a wrong command-line parameter is unclear
    - Auto-login does what it wants - starts on one day, does not on the other day (Although I don't use auto-login on a production machine, I hate it, when the software decides on its own and not predictable, how it will work today. The trust gets lost by that.)
    - Gdebi: Details window for displaying needed dependencies is unreadable.
As I remember the upgrade from Mint 16 to Mint 17 2 years ago or the upgrade from Mint 13 to Mint 16 some months earlier did not create only the half number of issues. Out of this reason I wrote on one place, that I am disappointed.

Further to note (although it is not the failure of Mint): Gnome-Schedule is no longer available (except by compiling it yourself).

What makes the most important problem (much longer boot times) hard or even impossible to detect before installing LM 18: The boot times with the live systems for Sarah and Rosa are at the second identical to each other. So comparing them gives no hint, how the installed system will behave. There was not enough time to investigate into the question, why the installed system is so much slower than the live system; the contrary would be expected.

Until now I can only see, that there are some differences between the live system and the installed system, which are iMO not expected: The 2 new options for the effect settings do not even appear in the live system.

User avatar
Schultz
Level 7
Level 7
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:57 pm

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by Schultz » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:13 pm

Why not try it out in a live environment first (preferably off of a USB stick)? I've used 18 (Mate) for a day and a half and I haven't noticed any bugs yet. Nor do I have a slow startup.

User avatar
MintBean
Level 9
Level 9
Posts: 2967
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:54 am
Location: Blighty

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by MintBean » Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:31 am

Wow that's quite a list, Cosmo; thanks for sharing. You're a lot more observant than me. Maybe it's not quite ready for prime time after all.

User avatar
terry_gardener
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:55 pm

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by terry_gardener » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:06 am

i have to agree with @cosmo regarding speed of mint 18, and i even posted question here in the forum and the only responses i seem to have got is that it is fine for others and one person said it was still beta and i knew it wasn't however i did get one response giving a link to ways to speed up ubuntu and mint after reading it i felt it wouldn't make any difference on my machine so didn't use it.

the boot time i think doubled in time didn't actually time it but seemed alot longer also in the DE i found that things weren't as snappy as they were in 17.3, also found i got little screen tearing in firefox when scrollig and didn't feel as smooth as before.

also playing MKV files in VLC got terrible pixelation and was unwatchable but worked flawlessly in 17.3.

i have now reinstalled 17.3 might try again when the .1 release happens

Cosmo.
Level 23
Level 23
Posts: 17830
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:34 am

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by Cosmo. » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:17 am

MintBean wrote:Maybe it's not quite ready for prime time after all.
I m not sure about this.

But fact is, that all above listed problems except the GDebi-issue had already been reported during beta state and are obviously not solved before the final release.

The speed problem seems not to affect every user, as some posts in the forum indicate, on the other hand I have read, that I am not the only one. Problem is, that this speed problem does not appear with the live system (I wonder why), so it is noticeable only after installing 18.
Regarding the other points: Not every user uses all functions and consequently not everyone will notice the listed problems. Some are harmless, others not.

I am rather sure, that we will get a number of support threads here about those (silly) doted lines at the edges of windows, which do not display the complete content (so they have to be scrolled). There exists a workaround (provided my JosephM in the beta blog), but I would expect, that there would be a settings option be available in the GUI. Also this workaround does not solve the problem for applications (like synaptic), which run in root context. Also the new overlay-scrollbars (I don't like them at all) can only get disabled for programs running in user context (and should better be disabled by default), but not in root context (same example).

Additional finding: Launching LibreOffice Writer on a fresh booted system takes in LM 18 about 20 seconds, until it can be used; for LM 17.3 (also VM) it is ready after less than 10 seconds, that means less than the half amount of time. Delays on other places are also noticeable, but not quite so obvious.

Did anybody take a look at the onscreen-keyboard? When you open the settings (inside the accessibility settings) there are 3 keyboard-layouts offered, but 2 of them show no noticeable difference at all. I have no idea, why those 2 layouts exist side-by-side.

Cosmo.
Level 23
Level 23
Posts: 17830
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:34 am

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by Cosmo. » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:47 pm

Bug list continued ... (might be helpful, to have them on one place)

For 4 slider bars the wrong part of the bar gets colored: 2 slider bars in the keyboard setting, 1 in the mouse settings, 1 in the touchpad settings. In those cases the part right of the slider gets colored instead of the left part. (applies for Cinnamon).

User avatar
MintBean
Level 9
Level 9
Posts: 2967
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:54 am
Location: Blighty

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by MintBean » Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:56 pm

Actually I am experiencing one irritating bug myself in that I'm seeing pretty bad screen tearing. I experienced some tearing in 17.3 (not as soon as I upgraded to it but some time after, IIRC) but it is considerably worse in 18.

I suspect Ubuntu 14.x->16.x introduced a larger than usual delta in the package base which has had repercussions for the Mint team in the number of issues faced. Still, no doubt things will improve as the Mint 18 series matures.

Barbados99
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:16 pm
Location: Central Illinois

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by Barbados99 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:27 pm

MintBean wrote: I suspect Ubuntu 14.x->16.x introduced a larger than usual delta in the package base which has had repercussions for the Mint team in the number of issues faced. Still, no doubt things will improve as the Mint 18 series matures.
+1
I guess I just expected some issues in an upgrade like this. If some are wanting a smoother transition experience to Ubuntu 16.x then they probably would be wise to wait for a few months, or even a few months after Mint 18.1 has been out - and then make the move. Nothing wrong with that.

I really really really like the Mint 18 though. Mine is fine, but it sounds like I may have been luckier than some.

User avatar
Reorx
Level 11
Level 11
Posts: 3931
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: SE Florida, USA

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by Reorx » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:25 pm

You can probably shrink a partition or 2 and make enough space for a test installation of LM18 (25 to 50 GB should suffice) and then dual boot LM17.x and LM18. Keep your important data on the LM17.x side but fiddle with the LM18 installation to see exactly how it behaves on your hardware under your "real world" conditions. Then you can migrate your data whenever you are comfortable that LM18 is "ready" - whether that is in a week, a month, or a year. Depending on your setup, you might consider a dedicated DATA partition if you don't already have one.

Once you have transitioned to LM18, you can remove the LM17.x partition and reclaim the unallocated space for your LM18 installation.

Summary - dual boot and you make the call on the transition when you are happy with LM18.x - whenever that is. After the transition, reclaim the LM17.x installation space for the LM18 installation.

<This advice from a guy whose production machines are all running LM17 - Qiana with CInnamon DE. I will probably transition to LM18 on my production machines in the next 6 months or so - I have no real need for LM18 but DO LIKE what I have seen so far. On my hardware, I have had no problems but I admit that I have not yet tested it extensively. YMMV>
Full time Linux Mint user since 2011 - Currently running LM19 Cinnamon.

Image Image

ostracized
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:46 pm

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by ostracized » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:52 am

MintBean wrote:Actually I am experiencing one irritating bug myself in that I'm seeing pretty bad screen tearing. I experienced some tearing in 17.3 (not as soon as I upgraded to it but some time after, IIRC) but it is considerably worse in 18.

I suspect Ubuntu 14.x->16.x introduced a larger than usual delta in the package base which has had repercussions for the Mint team in the number of issues faced. Still, no doubt things will improve as the Mint 18 series matures.
I see that you've also posted in the cinnamon screen tearing thread. Have you tried MATE and then switching to a Compton-based window manager? Based on your posts, I take it that Cinnamon's 3.0 Muffin still produces tearing and the issue still hasn't been resolved. I'm in MATE 18, Marco+Compton WM, and still have no problems in this area, even in steam gaming -- which btw requires a bit of nudging to get working: LD_PRELOAD='/usr/$LIB/libstdc++.so.6' steam

User avatar
BG405
Level 7
Level 7
Posts: 1900
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:09 pm
Location: England

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by BG405 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:38 am

The screen "tearing" you're reporting is something I'll have to assess when trying Mint 18 KDE on the media/fileserver machine when it comes out. Are you finding the same on the live session or just after installation?

I'm getting it on 17.3 Cinnamon 64-bit mostly on Firefox (not really a problem, I love the way it scrolls instantly .. none of this lag, dithering and hanging about then shooting 2 screens up like in Windows) but it's noticeable when playing videos whether on the monitor (75Hz) or TV (50Hz). Not really objectionable in the latter case though. But bad tearing would be a show-stopper unless it can be fixed.

@ostracized the last line on your post is tiny!!
Dell Inspiron 1525 - LM17.3 CE 64-------------------Lenovo T440 8GB - Manjaro KDE with Mint VMs
Toshiba NB250 - Manjaro KDE------------------------K7S5A AMD 1.2GHz - LM17.3 Xfce 32 & WinXP-Pro
Acer Aspire E11 ES1-111M - LM18.2 KDE 64 ----Dell PII 350 64MB - Puppy 4.3 & Win98-SE

ostracized
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:46 pm

Re: To upgrade, or not?

Post by ostracized » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:56 pm

BG405 wrote:The screen "tearing" you're reporting is something I'll have to assess when trying Mint 18 KDE on the media/fileserver machine when it comes out. Are you finding the same on the live session or just after installation?

I'm getting it on 17.3 Cinnamon 64-bit mostly on Firefox (not really a problem, I love the way it scrolls instantly .. none of this lag, dithering and hanging about then shooting 2 screens up like in Windows) but it's noticeable when playing videos whether on the monitor (75Hz) or TV (50Hz). Not really objectionable in the latter case though. But bad tearing would be a show-stopper unless it can be fixed.

@ostracized the last line on your post is tiny!!
Scrolling in FF can be changed by editing mousewheel.min_line_scroll_amount. Try something like 70 and see how you like it. I turn off smooth scrolling and enable autoscrolling as well. The line you mentioned, LD_PRELOAD='/usr/$LIB/libstdc++.so.6' steam is how to load steam currently in LM18. It's a known bug and I've just confirmed that it still exists despite a recent steam client update. Since there's also a bug in desktop launchers using the "application in terminal" option (xterm isn't installed by default in LM18), I have the aforementioned line saved in an .sh file in my home folder (with a shortcut to CS:S), here's the contents:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh

LD_PRELOAD='/usr/$LIB/libstdc++.so.6' steam steam://rungameid/240
...then I made a "regular" desktop application launcher with the "command" being simply the path to the .sh file and then marked the x-bit on the .sh file.
...waiting for @xenopeek for a more elegant solution. :D


Anyway, my suggestion for you is trying out LM18 MATE, use the usb live stick and use the same WM settings as me and see how it works out, no need to install it immediately.

Post Reply

Return to “Newbie Questions”