Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

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DrM
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Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by DrM » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:52 am

At http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/linu ... sarah.html I read the following statement:
With none of the other parameters changed - my box and me - Mint 18 Sarah is just not a very good release. The live session is awful. I don't have any smartphone support, at all. Quite a few other aspects of the desktop experience are missing or lacking, and they are just not as refined as they used to be. I don't know how, I don't know why, yesterday you told me about the blue blue distro. This season is bad. There's no other way of putting it. And my experience was so unrewarding, there are many other aspects of this system that I just did not evaluate in any depth, like the x applications and such. What's the point?

I wish I could tell a different story. But the simple reality is, I can't. It defies logic that the previous releases of Mint or perhaps Xubuntu 15.04 or whatever give me everything I need, but this new LTS struggles in roughly 6 out of 10 critical areas. Read it any way you will, think what you want of me, seek flaws in my methods, seek affirmation in my words, there's no escaping the awful and painful conclusion. One, I'm shattered. Two, this season is absolutely terrible. Three, Sarah Cinnamon deserves only about 3/10. Please stick with the R-releases, and do not upgrade.
I think he should wait with installing and trying until the 18.1 version has been released in which critical bugs and other issues have ben repaired.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by richyrich » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:06 am

I think he should wait with installing and trying until the 18.1 version has been released ..
Yes, and he should have read the release notes on Ubuntu 16.04 way before this too ! Some people are NEVER satisfied. I blame it on this new age of "Entitlement" . . :(

DrM
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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by DrM » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:18 am

richyrich wrote:
I think he should wait with installing and trying until the 18.1 version has been released ..
Yes, and he should have read the release notes on Ubuntu 16.04 way before this too ! Some people are NEVER satisfied. I blame it on this new age of "Entitlement" . . :(
Will Ubuntu 16.04.1 be incorporated into the Linux Mint 18.1 version? As we already may know the Ubuntu 16.04.1 fixes some critical bugs and has some improvements in Ubuntu 16.04.
Last edited by DrM on Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by Cosmo. » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:19 pm

DrM wrote:Will Ubuntu 16.0.4.1 be incorporated into the Linux Mint 18.1 version?
No one knows.
But if so, this would mean only at the end of the year (most likely). Taking in account the (unusual) great number of complaints about Ubuntu 16.04 and its derivatives this would be far too late.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by DrM » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:35 pm

Cosmo. wrote:
DrM wrote:Will Ubuntu 16.04.1 be incorporated into the Linux Mint 18.1 version?
No one knows.
But if so, this would mean only at the end of the year (most likely). Taking in account the (unusual) great number of complaints about Ubuntu 16.04 and its derivatives this would be far too late.
I think that the developers of Linux Mint 18 should have waited with developing Linux Mint 18 before Ubuntu would have been updated to 16.04.1. In that case Linux Mint 18 has been released to early due to the faulty 16.04 codebase of Ubuntu. It is not for nothing that the 16.04.1 update of Ubuntu has been released, see http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=09480!

What are the general complaints about Ubuntu 16.04?

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by rb0321 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:16 pm

I think that the developers of Linux Mint 18 should have waited with developing Linux Mint 18 before Ubuntu would have been updated to 16.04.1. In that case Linux Mint 18 has been released to early due to the faulty 16.04 codebase of Ubuntu. It is not for nothing that the 16.04.1 update of Ubuntu has been released, see http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=09480!

What are the general complaints about Ubuntu 16.04?
Wow, a lot of fixes listed in that link. Have been using Xubuntu, which is now on 16.04.1 also, without noticing any problems on my 2009 duo core iMac w/16GB RAM. Mint 18 Cinnamon also working very well, even if they both seem to take a bit longer to boot up than previous versions. In any case, I hope they update Mint to at least 16.04.1 before the end of the year!
Last edited by rb0321 on Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by Cosmo. » Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:17 pm

Examples:
Not displaying menus in applications: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... ug/1532226
Suspend mode failing: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... mments=all [1]
Problem with VirtualBox driver: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... ug/1572001

You may also read the "brief" list of fixes in 16.04.1: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/Rel ... ry/16.04.1

This is, what the official release notes about 16.04 say:
As is to be expected, with any release, there are some significant known bugs that users may run into with this release of Ubuntu 16.04.

[1] Christopher M. Penalver, as well Ubuntu Bug Control member and also Microsoft specialist, set this on June 4 at first 2 times to "invalid" and then to "won't fix" (see comment # 65 and below). I think my own part about such things. Much hope about quick solutions does not belong to my believe.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by all41 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:14 pm

Hi Cosmo
I am looking forward to Mint 18 revs that will patch the few weak areas we are seeing now.
As for me--Rosa still floats the boat.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by altair4 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:04 am

Bugs are funny things and how each distro handles them is different.

Fedora waits forever to respond to a bug then requires an enormous amount of info from the bug reporter and by the time the info is given they are told the version of Fedora they are using is no longer supported.

Ubuntu's method is also guaranteed to raise your blood pressure. As a case in point I offer system-config-samba a little utility that some folks use to configure a samba server for some reason. It will install but won't run. Here is the bug report: system-config-samba.py fails to start due to missing /etc/libuser.conf Utopic

It turns out this isn't a bug in system-config-samba but in another package libuser. The bug report lists this as "Fixed Released". Great ... but not for the version of Ubuntu it was filed against or even the current released version. It's for the yet to be released version of Ubuntu.
This bug was fixed in the package libuser - 1:0.62~dfsg-0.1ubuntu1
---------------
libuser (1:0.62~dfsg-0.1ubuntu1) yakkety; urgency=medium
Anywho, Since Dedoimedo was quoted in the first post you might be amused by another:Linux 2017 – The Road to Hell

Despite being with Linux at least twice as long at the author it's also taken me twice as long to reach the same conclusion.
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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by DrM » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:02 am

altair4 wrote:Anywho, Since Dedoimedo was quoted in the first post you might be amused by another:Linux 2017 – The Road to Hell

Despite being with Linux at least twice as long at the author it's also taken me twice as long to reach the same conclusion.
I think that releasing a new distro twice a year which Ubuntu does, is absolutely overkill, the developers of the distro don't have much time to develop a stable release without annoying bugs and other issues. Even Microsoft does not release a new Windows version twice a year! Stability and usability are much more important than eye candy and other bling-bling. Or would Microsoft secretly pollute the Linux code-base with annoying bugs to force using Windows 10?

In fact every .0 release of an operating system has annoying bugs and other issues which are fixed in the .1 release. Just like with Windows 3.0 which had many bugs which were fixed in Windows 3.1. Or not to forget Windows 95, Windows 98 for which the Second Edition was needed to fix bugs, or the infamous Windows ME (Miserable Edition). Also the first editions of Windows XP did have issues for which three service packs were needed to fix.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by MintBean » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:16 pm

I also believe Ubuntu's suffering as a result of the pace they've set themselves. I suspect a big part of this is due to the high number of substantial architectural changes that are currently being juggled- MIR, SystemD, Vulkan and desktop convergence come to mind, and it's bound to stress the time available against the biannual release schedule. This should all settle down in a couple of years however I also agree it could be useful for Ubuntu to relax their release schedule in the interim.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by DrM » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:20 pm

MintBean wrote:I also believe Ubuntu's suffering as a result of the pace they've set themselves. I suspect a big part of this is due to the high number of substantial architectural changes that are currently being juggled- MIR, SystemD, Vulkan and desktop convergence come to mind, and it's bound to stress the time available against the biannual release schedule. This should all settle down in a couple of years however I also agree it could be useful for Ubuntu to relax their release schedule in the interim.
Otherwise Ubuntu and Linux Mint will be a thing of the past! Why doesn''t Ubuntu stop releasing a new distro twice a year? A new distro each year or every two years would be a good thing. In that case Ubuntu should only release LTS versions only, just like Linux Mint.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by stuartv » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:09 pm

I'm replacing the drives in my laptop with a new SSD and planning to install Linux instead of staying with Windows. I will run my current Windows instance in a VirtualBox VM (or at least, that is my current plan).

I was going to install Mint 18. This thread has left me thinking I should go with a different release.

But does that mean I should look at Mint 17.3? Or go with Ubuntu 16.04.1? Which Ubuntu codebase is Mint 17.3 built on?

I am interested in stability and compatibility for continuing to do everything in Windows (in a VM) while I gradually migrate myself from using Windows apps to using Linux apps as replacements.

I have played with Ubuntu a bit in the past. I've been playing this week with Mint 18 w/Cinnamon. So far, I like Cinnamon way better than the Ubuntu GUI. But, stability and compatibility are more important that a GUI that looks familiar.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by Cosmo. » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:02 pm

DrM wrote:In fact every .0 release of an operating system has annoying bugs and other issues which are fixed in the .1 release.
I contradict here. Until LM 17 there did never exist point-releases and they worked like a charm. Even LM 17.0 (Qiana) still has it fans, as you can read here.

In fact such a tremendously high concentration of problems and bugs as in Mint 18 I have never seen in a previous release. This is a quite new "experience" with Mint and any other word than disappointment would be wrong. My disappointment has grown further after reading the latest blog. Not a single word about this matter; it appears, as if we are hunting for a phantom. Mint 18 is not even mentioned anywhere (except in a sentence about using the donated money). :cry:

I do the same: I will not use it and do not recommend it. As long as LM 17.3 is supported, I do not need it. But the disappointment is there.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by Pjotr » Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:35 pm

Cosmo. wrote:
DrM wrote:In fact every .0 release of an operating system has annoying bugs and other issues which are fixed in the .1 release.
I contradict here. Until LM 17 there did never exist point-releases and they worked like a charm. Even LM 17.0 (Qiana) still has it fans, as you can read here.

In fact such a tremendously high concentration of problems and bugs as in Mint 18 I have never seen in a previous release. This is a quite new "experience" with Mint and any other word than disappointment would be wrong. My disappointment has grown further after reading the latest blog. Not a single word about this matter; it appears, as if we are hunting for a phantom. Mint 18 is not even mentioned anywhere (except in a sentence about using the donated money). :cry:

I do the same: I will not use it and do not recommend it. As long as LM 17.3 is supported, I do not need it. But the disappointment is there.
I don't share your disappointment.... In fact, I'm quite enthusiastic about Mint 18. It works fine on all of the machines that I've put it on (about ten different machines, both laptops and desktops). No problems at all. I think it's a wonderful piece of work. Tadellose Spitzenqualität. :mrgreen:

Note that I refer to "bare metal" installations; I don't count VM's, which I occasionally use for testing purposes.

I highly recommend Mint 18 to everyone. Currently, it's the best that desktop Linux has to offer.
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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by kyphi » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:07 pm

I highly recommend Mint 18 to everyone. Currently, it's the best that desktop Linux has to offer.
Whoah there, not so fast. This latest release leaves a lot to be desired and is not a fit replacement for 17.3 just yet.

It is to be expected that there will be glitches since it is built on a new base. Perhaps it should have remained a beta release for a bit longer.
  • 1. What happened to the easy replacement of the update manager icons? These now have to be replaced via the icon cache.
    2. Where is Avidemux?
    3. Why is the Root Terminal a use-once-per session-only.
    4. Installing applications such as google-earth is a nightmare when they need a system reboot and crossed fingers for luck to work.
    5. What happened to gsettings which still works but only until a reboot when it reverts to the default settings. Same with dconf-editor. How do you change Boolean values now? (I had to do this via a command in Startup Applications.)
On the positive side, I can now access and play music from my Walkman (something Knoppix has been able to do for years).

The goal posts have been moved in Linux Mint 18 - but to where?
Linux Mint 19.2 Cinnamon - 64bit

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by MintBean » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:13 pm

stuartv wrote:I was going to install Mint 18. This thread has left me thinking I should go with a different release.

But does that mean I should look at Mint 17.3? Or go with Ubuntu 16.04.1?
As you said you prefer the Mint Desktop, I would recommend Mint over Ubuntu as I don't think there's much between them in the stability stakes. Try Mint 18 first as this is the future whatever way you look at it and you may as well install something with longer time until end-of-life. Most people are getting on just fine with Mint 18, but you can always revert to 17.3 if it doesn't work out on your hardware.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by Cosmo. » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:20 am

Pjotr wrote:No problems at all. I think it's a wonderful piece of work. Tadellose Spitzenqualität.

...

it's the best that desktop Linux has to offer.
To make it easier for all to follow: "tadellose Spitzenqualität" means = "impeccable top quality".
Note: All my notes and remarks are (as far as the DE is involved) about Cinnamon.

Nobody (me included) says, that Mint 18 does not run anywhere. But otherwise your - lucky - experience does imply the same general observation as the posts of those users, who write that thy always to updates via CL instead of the UM and claim, that their - undoubted - good experience with this is the way to go for all Mint-users. That are personal impressions and just that - nothing more.

It is impossible to overlook, that the number of threads about problems with LM 18 is far above the average. Ignoring them does not mean, that those problems do not exist. It is especially revealing, that in many cases the users reported that they did not have their reported problem previously in their 17.x system and they were able to "solve" the problem by reverting to 17.x.

It is also not a fata morgana, that the complaints about problems with Ubuntu 16.04 is high; I linked some examples. And looking at the "brief list" of solved bugs for the first point-release (link in my previous post) makes it even clearer: Every of the noted solved bugs in this endless list means a bug, which exists in Ubuntu 16.04; as Mint 18 has been released one month before the point-release they also apply mostly (except some parts like unity) for Mint 18. "impeccable top quality" looks different. Note, that this list is not a compilation of an Ubuntu-hater, but to my understanding an official Ubuntu-document.

There does exist a list about found bugs in Mint 18 / Cinnamon 3, compiled by me. In the meantime I would be able to extend this list some more. Of course, a user, who does not need the respective features or functions, will not notice them, but that does not eliminate the fact, that those bugs do exist! Those bugs (as far as applicable, Mint-Y does obviously not belong to them) do not exist in LM 17.3 / Cinnamon 2.8, so that are regressions. Other regressions are, that some applications do not longer exist in the official repos or have been replaced with newer versions, that appear as crippled variants of their predecessor (example: keepassx2).

Another problem are the new "features", which have been introduced with GTK 3.18: The small overlay scroll bar and the infamous dotted lines in windows which are shorter / smaller than the content. It might be discussable, if those are enhancements or annoyances, at least in the discussion about it during the beta state I found (IIRC) only complaints. The overly scroll bar can luckily get disabled in the effect settings, the terrible dotted lines only by a workaround, which had been published by JosephM; to make it worse both cannot get disabled for programs, which run in the context of root (like Synaptic).

The complaints could be extended; I don't do it, because it is not my goal, to make anything down. But as we are discussing here about the quality of Mint 18 (see the title), it would be like self-deception to close the eyes and ignore the existing problems.

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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by Pjotr » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:17 am

Cosmo. wrote:as we are discussing here about the quality of Mint 18 (see the title), it would be like self-deception to close the eyes and ignore the existing problems.
True.... But are they more than the inevitable teething troubles of an otherwise exceedingly fine LTS? :)
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Re: Linux Mint 18 Cinnamon not so good as it should be?

Post by altair4 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:32 am

Ubuntu 16.04 was not ready for prime time. 16.04.1 is no better.

We must all keep in mind that Mint is forked from Ubuntu. That is not technically the right word to use I suppose but there are so many fundamental differences between the two that I have begun to think of it as a fork and not a derivative.

So if something seems broken to you in Mint18 you need to differentiate between what the Mint team has created and released and what Ubuntu has created and released.

Anyhoo, I have consulted my crystal ball and I predict that this thread will either be closed or moved to the "Chat about Linux Mint" sub-forum.
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