Windows Update vs Mint Update

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InkKnife
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by InkKnife » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:56 am

ostracized wrote:
InkKnife wrote: So you are claiming that practically every Windows update contains kernel updates?
I claim that Mint would be well-to-do with added, well-placed restart prompts where necessary -- especially if the idea is to acclimate new Linux users who think everything is fine after "updating."

And speaking of transitioning win7 users, can someone please address my previous concern about unattended upgrades? Is it even worth the effort to make the updater emulate the fully-automatic install that is provided in win7? Instead of checking a default every 2 hours, perhaps a monthly patch Tuesday scheme can be devised where the updater runs once per month and auto-updates everything on the "patch Tuesday list" (including the critical security kernel updates?) -- so long as the list of updates are sufficiently old (a month) and have been vetted by most of the "beta tester" community first. "Bad" updates get voted off the Tuesday list so as to avoid instability.
I don't really think the MS update system offers much to copy.
First off if one is using Mint you are looking at kernel update every two years so they don't really count as regular updates.
Secondly, updates in Linux are fast and require no reboot so they can be done at anytime without interrupting work-flow.
Thirdly, Linux is moving away from reboots entirely, why should Linux bother to emulate a system that is inferior to the native update system now and will only become more inferior in the future?
Lastly, Linux avoids data loss at all costs. Windows on automatic will happily reboot even if a document with unsaved changes is open, destroying the changes.
It comes down to design philosophy. In the Linux world it is considered a virtue to keep the user involved and informed about the update system, doing substantial updates silently is counter to that philosophy.
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by BG405 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:20 am

InkKnife wrote:Windows on automatic will happily reboot even if a document with unsaved changes is open, destroying the changes.
One of my biggest gripes with Windows; especially when you've left a power-hungry machine on to do its work while you sleep. Very, very frustrating.
InkKnife wrote:It comes down to design philosophy. In the Linux world it is considered a virtue to keep the user involved and informed about the update system, doing substantial updates silently is counter to that philosophy.
A prime example of Linux's great features. A description of what is being done is far more .. er .. descriptive than a dumb progress bar! I know I've mentioned this already somewhere.

I was round one of my mates last Wednesday & he has downgraded two of his machines to Win10 before the deadline. Wanted to try a live USB so selected "shut down" but the user is forced to either
"install updates and shut down" .. which takes ages
or
"install updates and restart" .. see above.
No way to bypass it and, since these updates ALWAYS require "configuring" on startup, which also takes ages, it must actually be a restart. And no information provided whatsoever about the process.

Took 2 minutes to give the descriptions/changelogs a once-over and install updates on Mint KDE on the netbook.

Took 25 minutes to install, reboot and configure on Win10, then had to wait for the OS to finish messing about just to shut the thing off properly. He hates Windows and is eager to get on to Linux, think a complete Windows wipe is in order once he's got the hang of it.
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by BenTrabetere » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:51 am

ostracized wrote:And speaking of transitioning win7 users, can someone please address ... my previous concern about unattended upgrades?
I switched to Linux two years ago from WinXP. I am not an expert by any definition, and any comment I make is open for correction. That said....

There are two important steps in the transition from Windows to Linux. The first is to completely understand and accept that Linux is not Windows; the second is learning to do things the Linux Way. (The same transition steps, to some degree, affect the transition to a new version of Windows.)
Is it even worth the effort to make the updater emulate the fully-automatic install that is provided in win7?

I think it is a waste of time, primarily because learning to use Update Manager is not difficult. Click on the icon when it changes from a Check Mark to a Blue Shield, click Install Updates, and move on.
Instead of checking a default every 2 hours, perhaps a monthly patch Tuesday scheme can be devised where the updater runs once per month ...
I use default setting because I have not found an advantage to changing it - checking for updates has an insignificant impact on system performance.

I think adopting a monthly or even weekly update schedule for a desktop system is a Bad Idea. I think security patches should be applied quickly. Update Manager allows for ridiculously long durations, but I think someone would need a special good reason to do it.
... so long as the list of updates are sufficiently old (a month) and have been vetted by most of the "beta tester" community first. "Bad" updates get voted off the Tuesday list so as to avoid instability.
Or you could enable only Level 1 and Level 2 updates. These have been tested, and I am not aware of any instance where applying a Level 1 or Level 2 update cause the system to be unstable. I also allow Level 3 updates on my system, and I have never had any problems after installing one; however, as a rule I always check the Changelog.

As for Level 4 and Level 5 updates ... from time to time I will make them visible, just to see what is out there, but I have never had the urge or need to install any of them. I work under the assumption that if a Level 4/5 is sufficiently important, the Mint maintainers do what it takes to escalate it to Level 1 or Level 2.

Also, Microsoft's "Patch Tuesday" scheme does not eliminate the possibility for stability issues; all too often it is the source of instability. It is shamefully common for a MS update to break systems, or for an update to be withdrawn shortly after it appeared. It is almost as if Windows users are beta testers....

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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by BG405 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:25 pm

BenTrabetere wrote:It is almost as if Windows users are beta testers....
As far as I've read, Windows 10 home users are beta testers! Those who obtained a "free" copy of Win10 rather than changing from Win7/8/8.1 are, apparently, alpha testers :shock: I might be wrong don't take my word for it.
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by Portreve » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:30 pm

Crewp wrote:The Update Manager in Mint has been one of it's many strong points IMO, it blows Win update away.
Whether we're talking about apt, or yum, or any of the other mainstream ones (and the other software that sits on top of them) there's no question that one of the many things the GNU+Linux community knocked out of the park was software installation and software updating. NOBODY does it as well. Apple tries, and probably gets close, but it's not the same deal.
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by ostracized » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:43 pm

InkKnife wrote: ...if one is using Mint you are looking at kernel update every two years so they don't really count as regular updates.
I was given some good arguments about having an updated kernel and by my count we've had 2 kernel updates that appeared in the updater in less than a month now: 4.4.0-28 (the "update now ASAP" security one) and a stability 4.4.0-31. If we've already had a major security update this early, surely there will be many more?
BenTrabetere wrote: I think it is a waste of time, primarily because learning to use Update Manager is not difficult. Click on the icon when it changes from a Check Mark to a Blue Shield, click Install Updates, and move on.
I like the feature that you can hide the icon until updates are available. That definitely makes it more new-user friendly.
...you could enable only Level 1 and Level 2 updates
My understanding is that you would be leaving out a very significant amount of updates by leaving out level 3 -- even security updates!

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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by ostracized » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:18 am

Chris Were made an interesting point on his latest podcast in regards to updating family member boxes -- disable auto-checking and only upgrade when he's personally visiting to make sure everything's in order. I think it's a good enough concept if you're around these boxes at least once every 2 months and (additionally) they're not "high priority" targets. That way, family members don't unintentionally break something and they don't have to worry about upgrading the system themselves. This is probably what I'll do.

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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by BigEasy » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:26 am

BG405 wrote:As far as I've read, Windows 10 home users are beta testers!
As far as I read, all users of buntus is beta testers of Debian! 8)
Portreve wrote:Whether we're talking about apt, or yum, or any of the other mainstream ones (and the other software that sits on top of them) there's no question that one of the many things the GNU+Linux community knocked out of the park was software installation and software updating. NOBODY does it as well
Irony: especially update from constantly old Libreoffice in repository to new versions.
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by ostracized » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:56 am

I'd like to bring up this thread again to talk about the significance of kernel updates and how them coming down the Canonical pipe at a faster rate may be "the new normal"...considering all this talk about new security issues popping up recently. Albeit it's mostly on the server-side this time but my point is that I think you can no longer get away with updating the kernel only "once a year" or "once every 2 years." There's just too many security considerations you're ignoring if you neglect your updates.

I was playing around with my netbook and installed Lubuntu on it...all the package sources are pre-checked, even the backport/unsupported ones. They also naturally include all the security and non-security kernel updates as well. I guess what I would ask is why would Lubuntu (by default) make sure everything is up-to-date when the flavor targets really old devices like my netbook from 2010? This scale of incongruity between this flavor and LM's philosophy of "dangerous level 5 updates that could potentially break something, even though it's labeled as a security update"...doesn't make sense to me. This is touched upon at some length on a recent video by Freedom Penguin explaining the differences from UbuntuMATE vs LM18MATE...can't be bothered to find the time code -- so watch the entire video instead, it's very thorough and I like it (but not the part where everything needs to be done through the welcome screen. :roll: )

Are we going to run into a situation where people aren't properly updating their boxes in fear of breaking them but meanwhile the entire power grid goes down? Not saying anything happened like that happened in 2003, but that must have been one helluva "tree" in Ohio while everyone else was getting infected by MS.Blaster on their unpatched winXP boxes.

You know I was considering using a spare box and installing vanilla Ubuntu server on it for a free VPN connection to my home while I'm away "on vacation"...but after seeing all this security junk happen recently, I think those plans will have to wait at least a few weeks until Canonical properly pushes out 4.7.

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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by InkKnife » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:19 pm

The security precautions needed for a server running internet connected services are quite different than the precautions needed for a desktop user with no services enabled or exposed to the internet. Conflating the two is a very common mistake.
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by Portreve » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:18 pm

I have never used a version of Windows, from like Win9x on up, that didn't take a long time to go through the update process. Conversely, I've never used a modern, apt / yum / etc. subsystem-equipped GNU+Linux distribution which took particularly long to update.
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by TooMuchTime » Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:01 pm

The reason Microsoft updates Windows once a month is due to the sheer number of security flaws in Windows. Every month there are numerous updates made available with many more in the queue for the upcoming months. Recommended updates on top of important updates on top of critical updates. Some of those require a separate reboot. Which is why every company does these updates overnight. And yes, if you leave your computer just locked up and not logged off, you will lose whatever you were working on. Oh, well.

Microsoft believes that this once a month update process is less intrusive. I know because I was on those Tuesday calls and the Microsoft person was asked that very question. So basically what Microsoft is saying is that because there are so many security flaws requiring so many updates with so many reboots they have to delay the patching otherwise they'd be patching Windows every day.

It's really not the patch process that is driving this. It is the ridiculously large amount of security flaws in Windows that makes Microsoft take this particular path in updating Windows.

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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by samriggs » Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:50 am

I haven't used windows since I think it was XP, but I remember one thing besides the slow flow and watching everything constantly, was the extremely slow updates, that part drove me totally insane, I used to log on ooops theres an update, ok no surfing now or doing work, go make a coffee while it updates, ok now go drink it and watch tv while the reboots happens with more updating words on the screen.
I don't miss windows at all, glad to be rid of it.

I love the fact that I don't have to stop working or whatever just to update, which only takes a minute or two, I don't have to reboot afterwards, I just keep on going on whatever it is I am doing.
I do get some reminders updating windows with android studio at times when it updates, it can take forever then needs to reboot afterwards, I just open it up once and while just to check when not using it and let it roll out the updates, but even that is way to long for my liking.

If the updates ever slow down through the manager I'll just go back to using the terminal again, and if 1 billion linux users were around then I am sure there will be more mirrors to compensate, no big deal, with more folks using it more will step up and offer some server space to become a mirror

I hope linux never goes the way of windows and reboot after each update that would be insane and frustrating, just ask window users, I hear them complain about it at work all the time.
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by ostracized » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:52 am

samriggs wrote:I haven't used windows since I think it was XP, but I remember one thing besides the slow flow and watching everything constantly, was the extremely slow updates, that part drove me totally insane, I used to log on ooops theres an update, ok no surfing now or doing work, go make a coffee while it updates, ok now go drink it and watch tv while the reboots happens with more updating words on the screen.
I'm (not) sorry to report that's only gotten a lot worse. Especially on win7. It's not the servers either, it allegedly-appears that MS is actively gimping the update process on client 7 boxes to...drive annoyed users over to Linux?

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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by ostracized » Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:31 am

z31fanatic wrote:
BigEasy wrote:Lets wait until number of some distro Linux users became close to 1 billion. Then see how long time will take update.
I am willing to bet that we won't be alive when that happens. :lol:
I wouldn't be so quick to say that considering the trajectory MS has been riding the past 6 or so months. If they keep doing what they think is making them money -- my prediction is another Yahoo-style bankruptcy by 2020. Post-Android Google will no doubt save the day with Goog'In'tel Fuchsia pre-installed on various Nucs and Apple presumably will still be charging for their diamond-encrusted line of products at that time.

Ubuntu can take Africa. That's our hope. :D

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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by sikejsudjek » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:42 pm

Trying to get windows 7 to update takes an age. Windows 10 updates quicker but you can't choose which updates. Mint is far superior in every way. MS has gone backwards.

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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by TooMuchTime » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:09 am

Post-Android Google will no doubt save the day with Goog'In'tel Fuchsia pre-installed on various Nucs...
Google just wants to be sure that when they spy on their users and invade their privacy by capturing data that Google is not entitled to, they have a new operating system that phones home without too much impact on the user lest the users discover what is going on.
...and Apple presumably will still be charging for their diamond-encrusted line of products at that time.
I am working on a Macbook Pro and I was trying to install and boot to an external USB drive. I discovered that the drive must be "blessed" as a boot drive. I told my son that and he said, "What?!?! You mean that the Apple God, Steve Jobs has to say a prayer over your computer?" I told him this is just proof that using a Mac really is a religious experience. Apple has so over-engineered easy to use that Macs are now difficult to fix.

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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by InkKnife » Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:16 am

TooMuchTime wrote:
Post-Android Google will no doubt save the day with Goog'In'tel Fuchsia pre-installed on various Nucs...
Google just wants to be sure that when they spy on their users and invade their privacy by capturing data that Google is not entitled to, they have a new operating system that phones home without too much impact on the user lest the users discover what is going on.
...and Apple presumably will still be charging for their diamond-encrusted line of products at that time.
I am working on a Macbook Pro and I was trying to install and boot to an external USB drive. I discovered that the drive must be "blessed" as a boot drive. I told my son that and he said, "What?!?! You mean that the Apple God, Steve Jobs has to say a prayer over your computer?" I told him this is just proof that using a Mac really is a religious experience. Apple has so over-engineered easy to use that Macs are now difficult to fix.
All you have to do to "bless" a drive with a system on it is select it as your start-up disk. Been that way for 30 years with Macs.
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Re: Windows Update vs Mint Update

Post by sikejsudjek » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:01 pm

Well the latest windows update farce on windows 10 is the failing anniversary update. Lots of people reporting problems with it updating. When it does update there are problems with split ssd/hdd systems locking up. On my two windows 10 installations both failed. One worked when the ethernet cable was unplugged after the download (I have no idea why this works...), and the other failed because of insufficient disk space even though there was enough. Its fast becoming a joke OS.

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