My review of Mint 18

[rhY]

Former Fanboi checking in:

https://crhylove.wordpress.com/2016/09/ ... disapoint/

[xfrank]

A bit harsh. For the moment, we have Mint 17.3 until 2019, and also LMDE2. Plenty of time to wait for fixes and stabilization of Systemd.

[Night Wing]

I'm using Mint 18 (Sarah) Xfce and it hasn't missed a beat on any of my four computers (2 Desktop Towers, 2 Laptops) running Mint 18. No crashing, videos play, sound plays, wifi (on the laptops) works, basically no problems. Works and runs like a well oiled machine.

[linx255]

From the perspective of an average PC consumer, this is my response to the OP. If this is misplaced lmk and I'll remove this post.

My review of the Mate variety...

The good:
Beautiful. Everything great about a GUI you'd expect, plus some pleasant surprises with the way the appearance has improved, and new options for theming and decoration. Seamless Compiz integration is a huge plus.


The bad:
It takes a great deal of time and frustration customizing. ( I.e. Multiple places to change colors, themes like 'Appearances', 'gnome-color-chooser' ( not installed by default ), but you still can't finely control the window title-bar colors without creating your own theme or downloading another, at least not without digging into code AFAIK; please correct me if wrong. )

There are plenty excess packages IMO ( I've removed at least 50 packages I can't imagine would be useful to any majority ) and not a few really useful packages left out that I use all the time, such as unetbootin, extlinux, and speedcrunch which I think is just superior to the default calculator.

I don't like that Mint assumes you're necessarily scarce on power, enabling power management by default and making it a real pain to turn off. ( I.e. Uninstall screensaver, power manager, and also create a startup scripts with 'xset s off' and 'xset -dpms' is what it takes to actually stop the screen from going blank. ) Otherwise the blanking is a constant nuissance even when in use. For goodness sake, we're not all using power hungry servers running off solar panels; I'll just turn the screen off manually when I'm done, thanks. ( The power management on startup is a SystemD requirement per http://suckless.org/sucks/systemd --a site I find very question-provoking btw. )

I've destroyed my installation several times when removing USB drives from the ports, even after ejecting or unmounting them properly. This would freeze everything up, and not even Alt+PrScr+REISUB would reboot. It doesn't crash every time but consistently enough that I dread removing my drives and make sure I have OS backups handy.

My login screen only gives you one try to get the pw right. This might be a security feature but really, a nuissance. An option to adjust # of allowed login attempts would be nice.


Overall:
I think it's a great OS. It by far beats any other I've used and does pretty much exactly what I need and hopefully nothing I don't need. I hope Mint retains everything that makes it great and doesn't try to become something else. ( I'm all for a Devuan-based solution if it's stable enough. That said, I haven't tried Devuan, though I'm very curious about it. ) But overall my Mint 18 experience is positive and I'm grateful such a robust alternative to Windows exists. It's definitely far from perfect but the Mint team is really good at fixing bugs or solving problems I've reported and after 2 years of use and a couple versions later I'm confident in the platform. Every version keeps getting way better.

[Pjotr]

Former Fanboi checking in:

https://crhylove.wordpress.com/2016/09/ ... disapoint/

A dumb bashing doesn't make you look smart. And that deranged bit where you're insinuating that the US government killed Ian Murdock in order to spy on us by means of systemd, is downright paranoid.

On all of the machines I've installed them on (which is roughly between 10 and twenty, and counting), both *buntu 16.04 and Linux Mint 18 work fine. Systemd and all. Stable as a ship's diesel engine. Reports from Mint 18-using fellow members of my computer clubs are all positive as well.

So I fail to see what's the big deal about systemd *in real life*. I'm aware of the theoretical downside of systemd (one big lump of software that does too many things on its own), but so far I've seen only flawless performance.

All this bashing is much ado about nothing: the developers from Debian, Ubuntu and Mint have done a great job. I know a good thing when I see one.

[Jedinovice]

The bad:
It takes a great deal of time and frustration customizing. ( I.e. Multiple places to change colors, themes like 'Appearances', 'gnome-color-chooser' ( not installed by default ), but you still can't finely control the window title-bar colors without creating your own theme or downloading another, at least not without digging into code AFAIK; please correct me if wrong. )

Erm, I get a little confused here. I assume Cinnamon is being used here. When people talk about Mint on it's own without a qualifier they mean the flagship version - Cinnamon.

But that is not all of Mint. Customisation, I generally find, is not something most users are interested in. I mean, I think I am the only user I have known in the past ten years who has ever changed their screen color from the default! People love defaults. But KDE allows customization of everything including titlebar colors and everything else!

I mention this because

a) Cinnamon is not Mint. The lack of color control and 'strange' places to set things is a feature of the DE, not Mint per say. XFCE and KDE are very different and are still Mint
b) If customization is your suit then KDE is the way to go. Generally speaking, KDE goes all out of customization while almost every other DE limits customization and focuses on speed.

I kind of find a lot of Linux users prioritise speed and security. So you ed up with a fair number of users who, in their sigs, are running top of the line i7 with Mate or Xfce! Speed normally trumps customization for most users.

Sooo.. if customization is your bag then KDE is the way to go. Of course, that depends on your taste, what your desired workflow is, etc. But KDE has all the settings in one place and allows customization of... everything. Alas, I have no ability to test Mint 18 at this time and so have no idea how the spanking new Plasma 5 works yet - in terms of stability and speed anyway.

But your review is of Mint Cinnamon! There are three other editions! The problems you describe, I would contend, are features of Cinnamon and seem to reflect what those users, in the main, want. KDE has a different approach. Mate has another - speed first! Sorta.

I'm trying to be helpful, BTW, not antagonistic! I have a saying "A Man's desktop is his castle." Sorry, I'll correct myself there... "A Homo Sapiens of no specific fixed gender's desktop is ver castle."

Anyway... just sayin' that I don't think you're describing problems here as features of Cinnamon which are supplied in KDE.
Then .. choice!

[InkKnife]

Ya. I stopped reading when the sysD conspiracy stuff came up. I don't have time for that nonsense.

[linx255]

Erm, I get a little confused here. I assume Cinnamon is being used here. When people talk about Mint on it's own without a qualifier they mean the flagship version - Cinnamon.

I was assuming you read my "- I'm running Mint 18 Mate 64-bit" tag at the bottom, but it is in smaller font size. I should've specified anyway, thanks. Will edit.

Cinnamon is not Mint.

Technically indeed, but Cinnamon, Mate, XFCE, etc are part of what's packaged with Mint, and I'd like to think it's not outside the ability of Mint to make customization easier-- with Mate, because I don't like KDE, Cinnamon, or XFCE. Perhaps it is outside Mint's control or intentions, I don't know.

But that is not all of Mint. Customisation, I generally find, is not something most users are interested in. I mean, I think I am the only user I have known in the past ten years who has ever changed their screen color from the default! People love defaults. But KDE allows customization of everything including titlebar colors and everything else!

Yeah I guess I'm one of those rare default haters. I change everything; I find the defaults totally unusable. The colors are blinding, washing out my eyes, and causing much strain due to brightness and bad contrast, plus the fonts and scrollbars are tiny and hard to read and I have better than 20/20 vision. I use this desktop extensively so slowing my breathing to focus enough to make sure the cursor is on just the right pixel is frankly, too d*mn much. IMHO darker background colors and lighter foreground colors are supreme if you want your eyes to really relax. Most people probably never give it much thought, but if you really focus on your body you may notice your colors and window dimensions cause you to stress.

But I did manage to find a theme that works; it just took a lot of fiddling. Like you say it's more of the Cinnamon / XFCE / Mate issue, however, I was assuming Mint had its own theming / customization; I wasn't aware what I was using was exclusive to Mate, having never tried the other varieties.

Speed normally trumps customization for most users.

I've never really had an issue there; I just have a fast machine. Even if boot time is 1 minute instead of 15 seconds I don't care. Everything else is pretty much instant.

conspiracy stuff

After all the assassinations, leaks, and scandals I'd say anything is possible. But to be fair to the conspiracy bashers it helps to have verifiable facts.

Just a quick thought, sorry to ramble: The reason conspiracies exist is because the majority of people don't believe they're possible. This creates the perfect space for the bad guys to exploit a situation, just like mischievous hackers. It would surprise me if a world existed where there were no conspiracies unless everybody was conspiracy-aware and nobody tolerated all the assassinations, leaks, and scandals. But in this world, the majority doesn't seem to be aware or care, and that's what conspiracies thrive on; ignorance and apathy. So to me, it's always worth considering theories as long as there are sufficient facts to deduce their plausibility.

Conspiracies aside, my only concern with SysD is philosophical and overall it's a non-issue at this point, and possibly in the grand scheme of things.

[Rosko]

Erm, I get a little confused here. I assume Cinnamon is being used here. When people talk about Mint on it's own without a qualifier they mean the flagship version - Cinnamon.

I was assuming you read my "- I'm running Mint 18 Mate 64-bit" tag at the bottom, but it is in smaller font size. I should've specified anyway, thanks. Will edit.

Also, some members have signatures disabled.

[thom_A]

Could you people please specify which Mint product you are reviewing?

There are five: Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce, KDE and LMDE. They are all very distinct from each other. The differences are even vast in some cases. I like the simplicity of adding, removing, moving around icons on panels in Xfce more than in Cinnamon, for example. KDE has more advanced panel customization than all of the others, but it requires more mouse clicks, and so on. You can't lump all these distinct flavors into one and call them all Mint as if they are all the same.

(I'll probably never become a Debian-based distro fan, so LMDE is not for me. It's incomplete, it's still experimental after all these years. I'm no longer young to wait for decades. I'm also not a fan of Mate desktop; Cinnamon originally captured my attention when I was starting out, but I now only use Xfce and KDE.)

And I stopped checking out other distros. Mint 18 Xfce and KDE are all I need. And I'm trying to focus on the applications, not the OS.

[Jedinovice]

Erm, I get a little confused here. I assume Cinnamon is being used here. When people talk about Mint on it's own without a qualifier they mean the flagship version - Cinnamon.

I was assuming you read my "- I'm running Mint 18 Mate 64-bit" tag at the bottom, but it is in smaller font size. I should've specified anyway, thanks. Will edit.

Ah, you assume incorrectly! My bad. I didn't register that at all. I have two excuses…

1) When people say 'Mint' without a qualifier they tend to mean 'Cinnamon.' I kinda find this infuriating myself but it's how it is.

As an aside, I notice that SSD's are now sold as 'Memory.' Evidently hardware suppliers have given up with the general public who think a hard drive = memory. If I want to buy RAM I have to specify 'RAM' and not memory - or they give me an SSD in a package marked 'memory.' So now we have a change in IT jargon. Memory now means a form of hard disk … due to popular demand!

So, these days, if people do not specify in their post, we automatically assume Mint = Cinnamon.

2) I am half dead most of the time. My hours are insane and my work demanding. So I'm not too clear in the head. When I am, I have to dedicate my brain to my students.

Looking forward to establishing my own tuition business next year and having two days off a week and having the power to say "No!"

[Apologies for any errors in the typing of this reply. I have a full days work ahead of me and can barely keep my eyes open.]

So… that's my excuse note.

Cinnamon is not Mint.

Technically indeed, but Cinnamon, Mate, XFCE, etc are part of what's packaged with Mint, and I'd like to think it's not outside the ability of Mint to make customization easier-- with Mate, because I don't like KDE, Cinnamon, or XFCE. Perhaps it is outside Mint's control or intentions, I don't know.

Yes… could be. But that's still an issue with Mint Mate, not Mint per say! It's important because a novice reader could see 'My review of Mint 18' and assume that limitations in Mate apply to all flavors of Mint. As it is, I assumed you were running Cinnamon. It is important when people comment on Mint they specify which flavor.

But, going back to Mate… As I understand it (I haven't used Mate really,) customization is not where that DE is at. Indeed, when it comes to colors, I believe only KDE and LXDE allow for color changing as standard. All other DE's require the separate installation of gnome-color-settings.

But I do get your point. I also change screen colors so save my aging eyes. Reducing screen glare can make a big difference. But people love defaults.

Re: conspiracy theories… My reptilian overlords tell me to ignore them.

[Apologies for errors or typos in this reply. I have a full days work ahead of me and can barely keep my eyes open.]

[linx255]

As an aside, I notice that SSD's are now sold as 'Memory.' Evidently hardware suppliers have given up with the general public who think a hard drive = memory. If I want to buy RAM I have to specify 'RAM' and not memory - or they give me an SSD in a package marked 'memory.' So now we have a change in IT jargon. Memory now means a form of hard disk … due to popular demand!

It's "flash memory" or "RAM". Anyone who says otherwise is ... :-/ well, I don't want to be mean with my words.

Yes… could be. But that's still an issue with Mint Mate, not Mint per say! It's important because a novice reader could see 'My review of Mint 18' and assume that limitations in Mate apply to all flavors of Mint.

Sorry about that, I've corrected my OP to say 'Mate variety'.

So… that's my excuse note.

No sweat!

Re: conspiracy theories… My reptilian overlords tell me to ignore them.

It's for your own good.

[Rocky Bennett]

Hello All,
I am new here and really just a visitor, but I did read this entire thread as well as the entire review which is the centerpiece of this thread. I am a casual Linux user, I have installed and ran approx. 30 to 35 different distros on my machine but right now I am just running Linux Mint Cinnamon 18 along side Kubuntu 16.04 and Windows 10.

Because of my lack of experience, I am sorely uneducated about systemd, although in the last year or so I have read several dozen articles and whitepapers about it. What this means is that when I install an operating system I am only looking for two things;

1. ease of installation
2. stability

Both of my current distros provide these two objectives in spades. I do not have complicated needs, I just use a desktop system, but with Linux Mint 18 and Kubuntu 16.04 I have had zero issues.

My experience does not negate the OP's experience, it just demonstrates that for a casual user systemd is not really that bad. As far as the review goes, it was well written and I enjoyed reading it. As far Ian Murdock goes, I am a subscriber to the conspiracy theory and I really think that there are factors involved with his death that should be investigated.


Rocky Bennett

[Moem]

Most of the review is not actually about the product being reviewed, and it's hard to see which product is being talked about. Any chance of naming this a review of Mint 18 Mate?

[kb9qhd]

I don't like that Mint assumes you're necessarily scarce on power, enabling power management by default and making it a real pain to turn off. ( I.e. Uninstall screensaver, power manager, and also create a startup scripts with 'xset s off' and 'xset -dpms' is what it takes to actually stop the screen from going blank. ) Otherwise the blanking is a constant nuissance even when in use. For goodness sake, we're not all using power hungry servers running off solar panels; I'll just turn the screen off manually when I'm done, thanks. :roll eyes: ( The power management on startup is a SystemD requirement per http://suckless.org/sucks/systemd --a site I find very question-provoking btw. )

My frustration with screensaver is extreme. I do not want to disable - just destroy its existance.
HOW DO I uninstall, erase, etc. mate-screensaver from my system. Will re-naming the files in the 'bin' directory to saver-old saver-old-common work.

I do not like it interrupting youtube, vlc, mpv, mplayer, or anything else. The saver is activating every 12 minutes now. considering emailing mushroom clouds to the creators.

Linux Mint Team. Do better disabling for this at system level or eliminate from distro installation

[InkKnife]

I don't like that Mint assumes you're necessarily scarce on power, enabling power management by default and making it a real pain to turn off. ( I.e. Uninstall screensaver, power manager, and also create a startup scripts with 'xset s off' and 'xset -dpms' is what it takes to actually stop the screen from going blank. ) Otherwise the blanking is a constant nuissance even when in use. For goodness sake, we're not all using power hungry servers running off solar panels; I'll just turn the screen off manually when I'm done, thanks. :roll eyes: ( The power management on startup is a SystemD requirement per http://suckless.org/sucks/systemd --a site I find very question-provoking btw. )

My frustration with screensaver is extreme. I do not want to disable - just destroy its existance.
HOW DO I uninstall, erase, etc. mate-screensaver from my system. Will re-naming the files in the 'bin' directory to saver-old saver-old-common work.

I do not like it interrupting youtube, vlc, mpv, mplayer, or anything else. The saver is activating every 12 minutes now. considering emailing mushroom clouds to the creators.

Linux Mint Team. Do better disabling for this at system level or eliminate from distro installation

Um...all of those settings are easily accessed in the control panels. I agree the defaults are too aggressive about turning the screen off but also super easy to change.
Screen saver setting: http://i.imgur.com/SajARu8.png
Power Management: http://i.imgur.com/SNkzZw2.png

[MurphCID]

I must agree with you completely. I have been running Mint 18 and I don't have any problems with it so far. Granted I don't run a server, but I don't need to do so. The tinfoil on Murdock's suicide is pretty out there. I have no idea what Systemmd is, and it is a moot point to me. It sounds like someone just does not like Red Hat and their decisions. Haven't used MATE, but I am sure I would like it. So, OP, with respect, I disagree with your analysis.

Former Fanboi checking in:

https://crhylove.wordpress.com/2016/09/ ... disapoint/

A dumb bashing doesn't make you look smart. And that deranged bit where you're insinuating that the US government killed Ian Murdock in order to spy on us by means of systemd, is downright paranoid.

On all of the machines I've installed them on (which is roughly between 10 and twenty, and counting), both *buntu 16.04 and Linux Mint 18 work fine. Systemd and all. Stable as a ship's diesel engine. Reports from Mint 18-using fellow members of my computer clubs are all positive as well.

So I fail to see what's the big deal about systemd *in real life*. I'm aware of the theoretical downside of systemd (one big lump of software that does too many things on its own), but so far I've seen only flawless performance.

All this bashing is much ado about nothing: the developers from Debian, Ubuntu and Mint have done a great job. I know a good thing when I see one.

[linx255]

Um...all of those settings are easily accessed in the control panels. I agree the defaults are too aggressive about turning the screen off but also super easy to change.
Screen saver setting: http://i.imgur.com/SajARu8.png
Power Management: http://i.imgur.com/SNkzZw2.png

Except they don't work. I have to run 2 commands on startup:

Code: Select all

xset -s off
xset -dpms

Otherwise the screen goes blank constantly and regardless of the aforementioned settings. In fact I can uninstall mate-screensaver and mate-power-manager and still I have to create those startup entries.

This is silly. Why do we need two different power management systems?

[MurphCID]

I don't understand the hysteria on the net over this "SYSTEMD"? Perhaps I am ignorant of why it is so horrible. I googled and found pro and con. As it is System D reminds me of a Jerry Pournelle novel (first in West of Honor). It seems like an attempt to get all the boot files to work well together? I have had no crashes since I installed Mint 18 FWIW/YMMV.

[InkKnife]

Um...all of those settings are easily accessed in the control panels. I agree the defaults are too aggressive about turning the screen off but also super easy to change.
Screen saver setting: http://i.imgur.com/SajARu8.png
Power Management: http://i.imgur.com/SNkzZw2.png

Except they don't work. I have to run 2 commands on startup:

Code: Select all

xset -s off
xset -dpms

Otherwise the screen goes blank constantly and regardless of the aforementioned settings. In fact I can uninstall mate-screensaver and mate-power-manager and still I have to create those startup entries.

This is silly. Why do we need two different power management systems?

Your experience does not match mine at all. Perhaps your BIOS contains power management code? You should check because this is not a MATE problem. My wife has MATE on her laptop and the controls work exactly as they should.