Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

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LinWinux
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Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

Post by LinWinux »

Well, at first I thought it was a fluke because I updated Linux Mint XFCE 18.2 within the update manager feature which enables a user to upgrade to the next version. Ever since then, on that particular machine, the update manager no longer displays the green/white ssymbol with the checkmark, indicating that the system is up to date. Only the blue shield for new available updates is working, and that one is now always on. I haven't changed any of the previous settings for the update manager either. Then I updated my wife's computer, an identical mint xfce setup to mine, and exactly the same thing happened.

Okay, so I figured that it was a bug with the upgrade from an existing, running setup. However, then I did a clean install of Linux Mint XFCE 18.2 on a Lenovo T410 Laptop (the other two systems are Asus Desktops), followed by doing the upgrade option from the update manager afterwards ... and exactly the same thing happened. When 18.2 was installed and updated the green & white shield with the checkmark showed that everything was fine, but as soon as the upgrade to 18.3 finished, no more "system is up to date" shield ... only the blue shield with pending updates. That blue shield is there, even when there are no software updates checked & selected.
Yesterday I upgraded another Laptop, different brand than the T410, and exactly the same thing happened yet again. :roll: :?

It's annoying to see that blue shield endlessly, knowing that the system has been updated already and that everything should be fine. We're using English (US) versions of Mint XFCE, but we're currently located and living in Germany for the past 2 years. Any thoughts or ideas. Is it a bug, or is there a fix?
Thanks for your time.

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karlchen
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Re: Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

Post by karlchen »

Hello, LinWinux.

What you see in Update Manager Linux Mint 18.3 is the result of a design change. Means it is the designed (new) behaviour.
It has been asked and discussed and explained several times in the forum before.
I admit though that I will have to do some search in order to retrieve one of the threads where the changed behaviour has been explained well.

For the moment a brief explanation from my side:
E.g. you have configured Update Mananger to display updates of stability levels 1 to 4, but you have marked only levels 1 to 3 as safe for installation. This will lead to situations where you have installed all level 1 to 3 updates. But there are still updates of level 4.
Till Mint 18.2 Update Manager would have told you your system were up-to-date and displayed the green tick mark.
Since Mint 18.3 Update Manager will go on displaying the blue shield, because actually there are still updates available (level 4) which you have not installed, yet, but which are visible to you.
The same may happen if you normally install only updates of levels 1 to 3, but you have enabled the option to display security updates always.

So, no, Update Manager in Mint 18.3 is not broken. It only does not confirm any longer that your system were up-to-date, although there are still (security) updates which have been marked "visible", but not "safe for installation" by you.

Best regards,
Karl
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LinWinux
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Re: Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

Post by LinWinux »

Thank you for that explanation. Personally, I feel that this is an irritating way to go for several reasons ... which I understand makes no difference at this point. But just for the record, I have strictly update levels 1 & 2 enabled. When I look at my update manager Window, there are other levels listed, but none of them have any checkmarks in them by default, since my preferred setting is to ignore anything beyond level 2 updates. So from *MY* personal point of view, my system is indeed updated correctly, as far as I would like to see it updated. Before, I could rest easy with the "visual aid" of knowing that my system was updated exactly to my preferred choice, once the update process had completed. But now that silly shield is there non-stop, to remind me of updates that I neither want nor really need (in my opinion), thereby more or less forcing me to check all of the time what's happening with new updates. That is definitely an inconvenience.
Sorry, but I truly fail to see how that can possibly be considered an improvement. Ah well.
I guess that's the way the ball bounces ... the cookie crumbles ... and the mercedes ... BENDS. :D

Have a great Sunday.
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Cosmo.
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Re: Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

Post by Cosmo. »

One of the related threads, which karlchen mentioned is here; I linked directly to my first post in this thread, note that there are some more explanations in this thread further down. In short: The new behavior is a correction, but it lacks a proper documentation on the change log page.

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Re: Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

Post by karlchen »

Hello, LinWinux.

You may have to tweak you Update Manager settings a bit in order to get the old behaviour back.
As long as you permit Update Manager to present any updates to you, which are not also marked sage for installation, this blue shield will appear alerting you that there is more to update than you have enabled.

About limiting updates to levels 1 & 2 only: I think this is a somewhat too restrictive choice. The default would be levels 1, 2 and 3. - Considering that at preset almost constantly security holes are closed, irrespective of Mint's stability levels, I would seriously suggest to permit levels 1, 2, 3 plus all security updates.

Personally I consider the choice between stability on the one hand and security on the other a hand as a dangerous choice. We endusers should really expect and get both, stable software which is also secure. Analogy: I would not buy any car which forces me to choose between working reliably, but having bad breaks, and a car having perfectly working breaks, but an engine which fails every other day.

Anyway, here are the first results of my search for threads about "Update Manager always (showing) blue shield": Regards,
Karl
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LinWinux
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Re: Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

Post by LinWinux »

Okay, point taken, but ... I still have to disagree with you on this issue completely, sorry. First of all, your analogy is in my opinion incorrect. When a manufacturer updates something to be stable & reliable, speaking about vehicles anyway, safety is generally also part of such considerations. It's up to the manufacturer to let me know of stable & secure adjustments (blue shield), and then i's up to me to decide which, if any, of these items I plan on implementing. Once I'm done (green shield) the manufacturer no longer bothers me with additional unwanted safety or comfort adjustments ... unless I specifically request to be informed. That's the problem that I'm having here, and I wholeheartedly agree with the user in the first post who mentions how confusing this is for newbies. I've used Linux Mint since 2013. Since then I have "converted" about 45 to 50 people from windows to Linux. I'm sure that I'll be getting emails or phone calls from people as soon as they've upgraded to 18.3 as a result of such confusion. Especially VISUAL IN YOUR FACE changes which are constant reminders, should never (IMO) take place if everyone was happy with things as they were, for years and years and years. KISS ... Keep It Simple, Stupid.

But more importantly, having used Linux since 2009, installed varations of one type or another in probably around 100 computers, always having had 3 - 5 computers running in our house 24 x 7, and having two people in our household who work with computers full time ... we've have never had a single virus on our Linux machines, ever !!! People are beginning to wig out more than needed abou the security aspect of Linux, of this I'm very very certain. Even the last two major memory issue "viruses" which may have an impact on hundreds of millions of machines worldwide ... are proven to be a problem only when somebody hacks into a working system cache at the same time that it is running. That's precisely why that issue was undiscovered for so many years, because the odds of something like that happening are about as close to ZERO as one can hope for ... WITHOUT adding any fixes at all.

Thirdly, most average people (hackers & coders not included, that's why I said average) on linux computers these days are just general users. These people certainly don't need to be reminded 365 days out of the year that other updates, which they may or may not be interested in, are still avaialble. Give adults at least a tiny bit of credit, to decide for themselves which levels of updates they prefer, and once those levels have been achieved ... let their minds rest at ease that their system is indeed up to date (to their desired liking). But as another person in the first link mentioned, now a user is constantly reminded VISUALLY that "SOMETHING" is available, so perhaps he or she should take a peek and check it out ... day after day after day, seven days per week, 365 days out of the year. Really? That's not being a little ridiculous?

Finally and last of all to counter the rationale behind the never ending blue shield ... allow people to make the mistakes that they want to make. Most of us are adults who don't need a babysitter. If I choose to use Windows as well as Linux on the same machine ... thereby opening up my computer to all of the possible Windows viruses, worms, etc., then so be it. It's my choice. But if I really want to be safe, I certainly would make it a point to never use Windows in the first place, and I would never use a WiFi connection if a hard line is available. Linux with windows on the same machine as well as WiFi connections, are far more dangerous than having a green shield with hidden updates that most users more than likely wouldn't want in the first place. Give us back the green shield, and instead make the network connection show up in red anytime that a WiFi connection is being used. That would be much better for safety & security, as well as more sensible (IMO).

I know, it's wishful thinking. Just saying though ...
PEACE

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Re: Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

Post by Cosmo. »

To make it short: You are allowed to do every thinkable mistake. But this does not mean, that those mistakes are suddenly no mistakes any more.

If you do the mistake to decide, that you do not want to apply certain updates, than there is not the least sense in displaying them. But in case you want them to display, you cannot request, that the update manager shall anyway fool you with a lie about an allegedly up to date system. The update manager is supposed to give a correct information, which it does finally in 18.3. Reverting to the old behavior would mean, to implement a bug by will. No reasonable human will do this or want this.

And at the end: By using TimeShift the problem reduces dramatically. You can apply all updates in a bunch and in case of regressions you can still revert the system to the previous state and then apply the updates one by one to find the culprit. It is so simple, I can at now not imagine a more simple way. Ignoring this possibility is a decision by the user, to make his / her life more complicated.

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Re: Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

Post by LinWinux »

The problem with "this issue" is quite simply that both sides of the argument are correct. From the developer point of view: If a system has been updated, but there are still further updates pending, then the system has not been updated completely & properly ... so now you have the blue shield showing up all of the time.

But from the general user point of view: I opened the update manager, then I told the update manager exactly what I'm interested in, followed by having exactly those updates installed on my computer which I wanted. Once those (by the user expected & selected) updates were installed, my computer was then up to date!

By displaying the blue shield permanently (for most general users), you are taking away the option for the user to decide when his or her computer has been updated to his or her expected satisfaction. This is a point that cannot be argued. I'm willing to bet that most average users would agree with me on this. If you as the developer ... allow me to freely decide when and how to update my computer ... then you should also allow me to be happy with my choices, by acknowledging that *MY* computer is now up to date, to *MY* expectations and from *MY* point of view. After all, it is *MY* computer that I'm updating to *MY* liking, and not yours ... :wink:

I understand that this point of view is not acceptable to you, but that's because you're a developer, and not just a general user. You have to be able to see both sides of an issue though. For the average user, that green shield was much more important than you realize. It was helpful and it made users feel good about their system. So why not just change the message?
Your chosen updates are installed. Other non-selected updates may still be available though!
*THAT* would provide both solutions. The green shield for the user, plus a reminder that the entire system may have more updates available.
Well, whatever, I think we're just talking in circles at this point ... :wink:

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Re: Mint 18.3 upgrade ... Update manager corrupted ???

Post by Cosmo. »

LinWinux wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:43 am
then I told the update manager exactly what I'm interested in
Quite obviously you did not, otherwise you would not get the blue shield. You did actually tell the update manager to show those updates. The interesting point in this regard is, that I asked the question, why do you opt to display updates, where you decided already beforehand not to apply them, in the past to several users and not one single person did even try to give an answer. So without such an answer it leaves only, that you set something in the preferences, what you actually do not want. My common sense is not enough to solve this puzzle.

BTW: I have the feeling, that you addressed me as a developer. (In case I should have misinterpreted this, skip the following). That leads me to the impression, that you did not read, what I linked to you. Otherwise you would have found:
Cosmo. wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:02 pm
I am all but surely not a Mint official.
This includes, that I am not a developer. I am a quite normal user just as you.

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