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JoHubb
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Install KDE from live environment

Post by JoHubb » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:14 am

I am running KDE (Mint 18.3) from a USB stick in a MacBook Pro. OSX is deleted.

KDE in a live environment is running perfectly as far as I can tell, and I like it a lot!

Now, I want to install it properly on the MBP, but I'm not sure how to go about this. Unlike Mate, there is no Linux Mint icon on the desktop to click and install. Or if there is I can't find it. Maybe I need to install using Terminal but I've no idea how to do this.

Please advise. Thanks!

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Sir Charles
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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by Sir Charles » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:19 am

I guess for starting the installer from the terminal you could typeubiquityfollowed by enter.
I suppose that's one of the ironies of life, doing the wrong thing at the right moment -C.C.

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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by kc1di » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:47 am

There should be an entry under the menu >Administration to install also.
(Note: KDE is being dropped from the Mint desktop lineup beginning with version 19, which is due out anytime now. Though 18.3 will be supported for quite awhile Mint development of KDE will stop.)
Easy tips : https://easylinuxtipsproject.blogspot.com/
Linux Mint Installation Guide: http://linuxmint-installation-guide.rea ... en/latest/
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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by JoHubb » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:19 pm

Thanks.

I found the installer. Not sure how I missed it before.

Only problem now is fan control to prevent overheating. The OSX software has gone so I'm using Macfanctrld. This comes as a daemon which I have installed but there seems no way of controlling it. Does anyone know if there's a config file for this?

Re. KDE
I know this is being dropped in version 19 - unless the team can be persuaded to change its mind. I think I am alright until 2021 although I understand I will be missing new features.

John

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phd21
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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by phd21 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:20 pm

HI JoHubb,

It would help to know more about your system setup. If you run "inxi -Fxzd" and "lsusb" from the console terminal prompt, highlight the results, copy and paste them back here, that should provide enough information.

FYI: KDE users like myself can install Linux Mint 19.x Xfce or Mate when out of Beta, then install the KDE desktop on top of that and remove the Xfce or Mate desktops to have a newer Linux Mint KDE. Supposedly, we are going to be provided instructions for doing this. Linux Mint KDE 18.x is supported until 2021.

As for your Mac computer's fan control, there are fan control programs in the "Synaptic Package Manager (SPM)", and you can install TLP as well.

Most Effective Ways To Reduce Laptop Overheating In Linux | It's FOSS
https://itsfoss.com/reduce-overheating-laptops-linux/

TLP – Quickly Increase and Optimize Linux Laptop Battery Life
https://www.tecmint.com/tlp-increase-an ... tery-life/

unity - Enable fan control on ubuntu gnome and macbook pro - Ask Ubuntu
https://askubuntu.com/questions/730796/ ... acbook-pro

GitHub - dgraziotin/mbpfan: A simple daemon to control fan speed on all MacBook/MacBook Pros (probably all Apple computers) for Linux 3.x.x and 4.x.x
https://github.com/dgraziotin/mbpfan

mac - How to solve heat problems Ubuntu (16.04) on MacBook Pro (15-inch, Mid 2010) - Super User
https://superuser.com/questions/1101215 ... h-mid-2010


Hope this helps ...
Phd21: Mint KDE 18.3 & 19, 64-bit Awesome OS, Ancient Dell OptiPlex 780 Core2Duo E8400 3GHz,4gb Ram,256gb SDD, Video: Intel 4 Graphics, DVD Lightscribe. Why I use KDE?:https://opensource.com/life/15/4/9-reasons-to-use-kde

JoHubb
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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by JoHubb » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:48 pm

Many thanks for all this,

Code: Select all

howard@howard-MacBookPro ~ $ inxi -Fxzd
System:    Host: howard-MacBookPro Kernel: 4.10.0-38-generic x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 5.4.0)
           Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.8.9 (Qt 5.6.1)
           Distro: Linux Mint 18.3 Sylvia
Machine:   System: Apple (portable) product: MacBookPro6 2 v: 1.0
           Mobo: Apple model: Mac-F22586C8 v: MacBookPro6 2
           Bios: Apple v: MBP61.88Z.0057.B17.1702241225 date: 02/24/17
CPU:       Dual core Intel Core i7 M 620 (-HT-MCP-) cache: 4096 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 10641
           clock speeds: max: 2661 MHz 1: 1729 MHz 2: 1330 MHz 3: 1197 MHz
           4: 1330 MHz
Graphics:  Card-1: Intel Core Processor Integrated Graphics Controller
           bus-ID: 00:02.0
           Card-2: NVIDIA GT216M [GeForce GT 330M] bus-ID: 01:00.0
           Display Server: X.Org 1.18.4 drivers: nouveau (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
           Resolution: 1680x1050@59.88hz
           GLX Renderer: NVA5
           GLX Version: 3.0 Mesa 17.2.8 Direct Rendering: Yes
Audio:     Card-1 Intel 5 Series/3400 Series High Definition Audio
           driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:1b.0
           Card-2 NVIDIA GT216 HDMI Audio Controller
           driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 01:00.1
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k4.10.0-38-generic
Network:   Card-1: Broadcom NetXtreme BCM5764M Gigabit Ethernet PCIe
           driver: tg3 v: 3.137 bus-ID: 02:00.0
           IF: enp2s0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
           Card-2: Broadcom BCM43224 802.11a/b/g/n
           driver: wl bus-ID: 03:00.0
           IF: wlp3s0 state: up mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 500.1GB (2.5% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: Hitachi_HTS72505 size: 500.1GB
           Optical: /dev/sr0 model: MATSHITA DVD-R   UJ-898
           rev: HC10 dev-links: cdrom,cdrw,dvd,dvdrw
           Features: speed: 24x multisession: yes
           audio: yes dvd: yes rw: cd-r,cd-rw,dvd-r state: running
Partition: ID-1: / size: 233G used: 7.8G (4%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2
           ID-2: swap-1 size: 4.15GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda3
RAID:      No RAID devices: /proc/mdstat, md_mod kernel module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 35.5C mobo: N/A gpu: 51.0
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A
Info:      Processes: 201 Uptime: 1:09 Memory: 689.8/3812.2MB
           Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Gcc sys: 5.4.0
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.481) inxi: 2.2.35 
howard@howard-MacBookPro ~ $ 
Thanks for the information about KDE, Now that I am beginning to get to know it, it is comforting to know that it can be kept alive in version 19.

I seem to have improved the cooling with the macfanctrld daemon. Now that it is installed I am not sure how to remove it, and replace it with something else.

Lastly, a minor irritation. During the boot, I get what I also get in Mate on another machine - three or four options, the first one being automatic unless another is chosen. My first line is simply Linux Mint 18,3. This opens to an incomplete program, The second option is a compatibility option. The third option is Linux Mint 18.3 with the drive information. If I open this, I get the full program with all the changes and additions I have made.
So, how do I remove that first option?
Last edited by Moem on Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Adding [code] tags. They retain some formatting that makes your output easier to read.

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phd21
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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by phd21 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:26 pm

HI JoHubb,

You are welcome from all of us that replied...

1.) Regarding the results from the "inxi -Fxzd", you would probably benefit by using the Nvidia video card driver over the default "nouveau" video driver even though that seems to be working well too. And, you should update the Linux Kernel to a newer one through the Mint Update Manager.

NVIDIA: how to install the latest video card drivers - Easy Linux tips project
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinuxtipsproject/12
Graphics: Card-1: Intel Core Processor Integrated Graphics Controller
bus-ID: 00:02.0
Card-2: NVIDIA GT216M [GeForce GT 330M] bus-ID: 01:00.0
Display Server: X.Org 1.18.4 drivers: nouveau (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
Resolution: 1680x1050@59.88hz
GLX Renderer: NVA5
GLX Version: 3.0 Mesa 17.2.8 Direct Rendering: Yes

JoHubb wrote:Thanks for the information about KDE, Now that I am beginning to get to know it, it is comforting to know that it can be kept alive in version 19.
I feel the same way. I'm just curious which KDE PPA should be installed to keep the KDE apps updated, the "Kubuntu" or "Neon" or one of the other KDE distros.

FYI: The Linux Mint instructions should be available soon for updating Linux Mint 19 to add the KDE Plasma Desktop, but I found these articles.
How to install KDE plasma desktop on Ubuntu 18.04 Bionic Beaver Linux (Linux Mint 19.x)
https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-install- ... aver-linux

8 Best Ubuntu Desktop Environments (18.04 Bionic Beaver Linux) - LinuxConfig.org
https://linuxconfig.org/8-best-ubuntu-d ... aver-linux

Desktop - Change the Desktop Environment - System76 Support
https://support.system76.com/articles/d ... vironment/
JoHubb wrote:I seem to have improved the cooling with the macfanctrld daemon. Now that it is installed I am not sure how to remove it, and replace it with something else.

How did you install "macfanctrld daemon"? You can disable the currently running "macfanctrld daemon" by using the console terminal command below.

Code: Select all

sudo systemctl disable macfanctrld
How to Enable or Disable Services in Ubuntu Systemd/Upstart
https://linoxide.com/linux-how-to/enabl ... d-upstart/
JoHubb wrote:Lastly, a minor irritation. During the boot, I get what I also get in Mate on another machine - three or four options, the first one being automatic unless another is chosen. My first line is simply Linux Mint 18,3. This opens to an incomplete program, The second option is a compatibility option. The third option is Linux Mint 18.3 with the drive information. If I open this, I get the full program with all the changes and additions I have made.
So, how do I remove that first option?
Try just updating the grub bootloader using the command below, or updating the Linux Kernel through the Mint Update Manager. Reboot afterward.

Code: Select all

sudo update-grub2
or

Code: Select all

sudo update-grub
Otherwise, you would have to manually edit the "grub bootloader" file.

Configure GRUB2 Boot Loader Settings In Ubuntu 16.04 - OSTechNix
https://www.ostechnix.com/configure-gru ... ntu-16-04/

How to Set Grub to Remember Your Last Selected Entry - Make Tech Easier
https://www.maketecheasier.com/set-grub ... selection/

An introduction to GRUB2 configuration for your Linux machine | Opensource.com
https://opensource.com/article/17/3/int ... tion-linux


Hope this helps ...
Phd21: Mint KDE 18.3 & 19, 64-bit Awesome OS, Ancient Dell OptiPlex 780 Core2Duo E8400 3GHz,4gb Ram,256gb SDD, Video: Intel 4 Graphics, DVD Lightscribe. Why I use KDE?:https://opensource.com/life/15/4/9-reasons-to-use-kde

JoHubb
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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by JoHubb » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:52 am

Ouch! Many problems now.

Before doing anything you suggested, when I booted this morning it took several attempts before KDE loaded. Each failure seemed to be due to power loss either to the whole MBP, or the graphics card. But, eventually Linux loaded and ran normally.

I updated the grub bootloader as you suggested and rebooted. Again it took several attempts before Linux loaded. The four options during GRUB had not changed.

Then I attempted to update the Nvidia card using PPA. The card and driver (340.107) were shown as available but when I tried to install the package, there was an error message in konsole that the driver could not be found. Maybe unwisely, I then used Driver Manager to update - the 340.107 driver was listed.

SInce then, I have not been able to boot the MBP at all. I cannot even run it off live environment (USB stick). In fact, the USB stick is not recognised by Mint in two other machines in the network, although it is seen by Windows 10.

I am at a loss to know where to go from here. There may be a hardware problem with the MBP as it ran very slowly and erratically in OSX Sierra.
Maybe I should cut my losses, and stop wasting everyone's valuable time. :(

John

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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by kc1di » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:59 am

Of course if there are hardware problems , )I'd check the power supply first) no amount of software tweaking is going to fix that.
But before you give up I might suggest that you give Kubuntu a try - It's a very good KDE distro.

Good luck.
Easy tips : https://easylinuxtipsproject.blogspot.com/
Linux Mint Installation Guide: http://linuxmint-installation-guide.rea ... en/latest/
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JoHubb
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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by JoHubb » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:00 am

kc1di wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:59 am
Of course if there are hardware problems , )I'd check the power supply first) no amount of software tweaking is going to fix that.
But before you give up I might suggest that you give Kubuntu a try - It's a very good KDE distro.
Thanks.

The battery is 8 years old and I know it doesn't hold its charge well. I'll check it out. Perhaps I should fork out for a new battery but it might be throwing good money after bad....

If I use Kubuntu, can it be easily networked to the Mint computers in my network?

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kc1di
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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by kc1di » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:35 am

Should be no problem networking.
Easy tips : https://easylinuxtipsproject.blogspot.com/
Linux Mint Installation Guide: http://linuxmint-installation-guide.rea ... en/latest/
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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by phd21 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:18 am

Hi JoHubb,

I just read your post again and more good replies to it. Here are my thoughts on this as well.

What you are describing now sounds like hardware problems, perhaps the battery and or more hardware issues like the power supply.

Linux Mint KDE and or Kubuntu which Linux Mint KDE uses to keep the KDE apps updated have no problems networking that I know of.

Good Luck...
Phd21: Mint KDE 18.3 & 19, 64-bit Awesome OS, Ancient Dell OptiPlex 780 Core2Duo E8400 3GHz,4gb Ram,256gb SDD, Video: Intel 4 Graphics, DVD Lightscribe. Why I use KDE?:https://opensource.com/life/15/4/9-reasons-to-use-kde

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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by JoHubb » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:02 pm

Thanks to all for advice. I will scrap the MacBook!

John

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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by phd21 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:46 pm

Hi JoHubb,

You are welcome from all of us that replied...

If you can afford a newer better computer, then go for it. Although, the specifications for your mac book are fairly good with an Intel dual-core i7 CPU (4 processing threads) with 4gb of system memory, so it might be worth investing in a new battery, power supply, and or power cable, perhaps an SSDrive and more memory, or perhaps taking it somewhere to make sure it is not a motherboard (mainboard) problem.
Phd21: Mint KDE 18.3 & 19, 64-bit Awesome OS, Ancient Dell OptiPlex 780 Core2Duo E8400 3GHz,4gb Ram,256gb SDD, Video: Intel 4 Graphics, DVD Lightscribe. Why I use KDE?:https://opensource.com/life/15/4/9-reasons-to-use-kde

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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by JoHubb » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:56 pm

phd21 wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:46 pm
If you can afford a newer better computer, then go for it. Although, the specifications for your mac book are fairly good with an Intel dual-core i7 CPU (4 processing threads) with 4gb of system memory, so it might be worth investing in a new battery, power supply, and or power cable, perhaps an SSDrive and more memory, or perhaps taking it somewhere to make sure it is not a motherboard (mainboard) problem.
I've already spent too much time a trying to coax this old MBP into doing something useful! The attempted Linux installation was a last mad throw of the dice.

I reckon it's time to buy something new. If I could stretch to a Mac Air, would it be reasonably simple to install Mint KDE or Kubuntu KDE? I understand the basics of it, but things like cooling scare me, especially with a new machine - no warranty will cover a Linux distro install.

If I bought a new Mac Air, would it be better/possible to dual boot? Or would it be better or easier to install using Virtualbox?

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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by phd21 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:07 pm

HI JoHubb

I do not know that much about Mac computers, nor the Mac Air, so I cannot answer your questions from experience. From what I have read, as long as the Mac uses an Intel CPU, then yes, you can dual-boot, or use VirtualBox, with Linux Mint. I would not think that your hardware warranty would be adversely affected by using Linux Mint, but again you would have to ask the Mac people. You might consider getting another brand of laptop or "convertible" laptop.

I prefer Linux Mint over all the other Linux distributions (distros), even with Linux Mint 19, if I have to install "Xfce" first, then install KDE desktop into that. I have done quick tests before with the "Kubuntu", "Neon", and "Maui" KDE desktops distributions which seem to work well too.
Update: I installed Linux Mint 19 Xfce onto an external drive, and added the KDE desktop using the simple instructions from the first link in my reply, repeated below in 2 steps, and it worked perfectly. But, I still have all the Xfce apps as well.

Code: Select all

sudo apt install tasksel

Code: Select all

sudo tasksel install kubuntu-desktop
During the installation process select "sddm" display manager, reboot, that's it.

To Keep the KDE apps updated I also installed the Kubuntu Backports PPA

Code: Select all

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:kubuntu-ppa/backports -y

Code: Select all

sudo apt update 
Hope this helps...
.

Code: Select all

user69@seagate:~$ inxi -Fxzd
System:    Host: xxxxxx Kernel: 4.15.0-23-generic x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 7.3.0 
           Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.12.5 tk: Qt 5.9.5 Distro: Linux Mint 19 Tara base: Ubuntu 18.04 LTS Bionic 
Machine:   Type: Laptop System: Dell product: OptiPlex 780 v: N/A serial: <filter> 
           Mobo: Dell model: 0DFRFW v: A01 serial: <filter> BIOS: Dell v: A15 date: 08/06/2013 
Battery:   Device-1: hidpp_battery_0 model: Logitech Unifying Device. Wireless PID:1024 charge: 55% 
           status: Discharging 
           Device-2: hidpp_battery_1 model: Logitech K520 charge: 70% status: Discharging 
CPU:       Topology: Dual Core model: Intel Core2 Duo E8400 bits: 64 type: MCP arch: Penryn rev: A 
           L2 cache: 6144 KiB 
           flags: lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 ssse3 vmx bogomips: 11970 
           Speed: 2666 MHz min/max: N/A Core speeds (MHz): 1: 2666 2: 2391 
Graphics:  Card-1: Intel 4 Series Integrated Graphics driver: i915 v: kernel bus ID: 00:02.0 
           Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.19.6 driver: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa resolution: 1440x900~60Hz 
           OpenGL: renderer: Mesa DRI Intel Q45/Q43 v: 2.1 Mesa 18.0.0-rc5 direct render: Yes 
Audio:     Card-1: Intel 82801JD/DO HD Audio driver: snd_hda_intel v: kernel bus ID: 00:1b.0 
           Card-2: Logitech Webcam C270 type: USB driver: uvcvideo,snd-usb-audio bus ID: 1:5 
           Sound Server: ALSA v: k4.15.0-23-generic 
Network:   Card-1: Intel 82567LM-3 Gigabit Network Connection driver: e1000e v: 3.2.6-k port: ece0 
           bus ID: 00:19.0 
           IF: enp0s25 state: down mac: <filter> 
           Card-2: Ralink RT2870 Wireless Adapter type: USB driver: rt2800usb bus ID: 2:2 
           IF: wlx00c0ca1deb38 state: up mac: <filter> 
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 387.53 GiB used: 119.44 GiB (30.8%) 
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: SPCC Solid State Disk size: 238.47 GiB 
           ID-2: /dev/sdb vendor: Seagate model: ST9160412AS size: 149.05 GiB 
           Optical-1: /dev/sr0 vendor: TEAC model: DVD-ROM DV-28SW rev: D.2F dev-links: cdrom,dvd 
           Features: speed: 24 multisession: yes audio: yes dvd: yes rw: none state: running 
           Optical-2: /dev/sr1 vendor: HL-DT-ST model: DVDRAM GP08LU30 rev: 1.01 dev-links: cdrw,dvdrw 
           Features: speed: 24 multisession: yes audio: yes dvd: yes rw: cd-r,cd-rw,dvd-r,dvd-ram 
           state: running 
Partition: ID-1: / size: 145.71 GiB used: 11.65 GiB (8.0%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sdb1 
           ID-2: swap-1 size: 4.80 GiB used: 653.5 MiB (13.3%) fs: swap dev: /dev/sda5 
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 59.0 C mobo: N/A 
           Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A 
Info:      Processes: 214 Uptime: 1h 20m Memory: 3.69 GiB used: 2.38 GiB (64.6%) Init: systemd runlevel: 5 
           Compilers: gcc: 7.3.0 Shell: bash v: 4.4.19 inxi: 3.0.14 
.
KDE_1804_1.jpg
Phd21: Mint KDE 18.3 & 19, 64-bit Awesome OS, Ancient Dell OptiPlex 780 Core2Duo E8400 3GHz,4gb Ram,256gb SDD, Video: Intel 4 Graphics, DVD Lightscribe. Why I use KDE?:https://opensource.com/life/15/4/9-reasons-to-use-kde

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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by JoHubb » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:00 am

That's fascinating! I will look out an old external drive and see if I can replicate your experiment.

As is my nature, I thought to give the MBP a last final chance, and bootloaded it this morning. The first GRUB option - nada. The third option - nada. The second option - hey presto! Mint launched! It seems to run normally but it reverts to the login page after a few minutes.

John

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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by phd21 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:56 am

HI JoHubb,
JoHubb wrote:That's fascinating! I will look out an old external drive and see if I can replicate your experiment.
I do not know if the Linux Mint team or forum Administrators have posted their instructions for adding the KDE desktop to Linux Mint 19 yet as is expected, but I wanted to try the new versions. I noticed that this installation procedure did not install all the typical KDE default applications, or the KDE Wayland display server, so I did that through the "Synaptic Package Manager (SPM)" and rebooted which worked well. So far, it seems very stable and faster than Linux Mint 18.x based on Ubuntu 16.04, but it is a fresh installation without all the stuff I usually install. I also noticed that there are some applications that I use (ie: qTox "Qtox" messenger) that have not yet been updated to install and use in Linux Mint 19 based on Ubuntu 18.04 or newer which is typical with newer Ubuntu releases; most of these apps eventually do get updated though. I was able to compile qtox and use other Tox messenger clients for Linux like "Toxygen" and "uTox". FYI: Plasma Wayland may not work well for all systems, if you have problems select just plasma during login vs plasma wayland.
JoHubb wrote:As is my nature, I thought to give the MBP a last final chance, and bootloaded it this morning. The first GRUB option - nada. The third option - nada. The second option - hey presto! Mint launched! It seems to run normally but it reverts to the login page after a few minutes. John
Being sent back to the login screen might be due to screen saver (screen locker) and or power saving settings.

Remember that after changing the Grub bootloader, you still have to save those changes.

Code: Select all

sudo update-grub

Hope this helps ...
Last edited by phd21 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Phd21: Mint KDE 18.3 & 19, 64-bit Awesome OS, Ancient Dell OptiPlex 780 Core2Duo E8400 3GHz,4gb Ram,256gb SDD, Video: Intel 4 Graphics, DVD Lightscribe. Why I use KDE?:https://opensource.com/life/15/4/9-reasons-to-use-kde

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Re: Install KDE from live environment

Post by JoHubb » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:32 pm

All good stuff, phd21, which I will return to when I finally get a laptop which does what it's told.

You guessed. After leading me up the garden path all morning, the MBP failed to boot this evening. I had managed to install mbpfan and get it running, but it was all a waste of time. The aforesaid machine has used up all its nine lives and is now waiting in the shed pending its final destination, or should I say, destruction. :(

Thanks again for all your help with this. As I say, when I get a proper functioning laptop, I will post again re. version 19 and your external drive experiment.

John

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