What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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MurphCID
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:38 am

My dad is a tech savage. He loves the "Windows XP" computer I got for him (I do not tell him it is running Linux Mint 18.3 Cinnamon). He just want the computer to boot, load the o/s, allow him to surf the net, play solitare, watch YouTube golf videos, and email. That is all he wants. He was not interested in Apple O/S, Chrome O/S, he thinks that Windows XP was the greatest operating system ever. It was what he had on his first computer, and he claims all others after that sucked. That is what he wants in a computer...to just work and not having to think about it working, like an appliance.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Valsodar » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:15 am

MurphCID wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:38 am
My dad is a tech savage. He loves the "Windows XP" computer I got for him (I do not tell him it is running Linux Mint 18.3 Cinnamon). He just want the computer to boot, load the o/s, allow him to surf the net, play solitare, watch YouTube golf videos, and email. That is all he wants. He was not interested in Apple O/S, Chrome O/S, he thinks that Windows XP was the greatest operating system ever. It was what he had on his first computer, and he claims all others after that sucked. That is what he wants in a computer...to just work and not having to think about it working, like an appliance.
There are themes online and you can even make Mint look like XP in order to be more persuasive it's XP. :lol:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by glocal » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:50 am

MurphCID wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:38 am
like an appliance.
My thoughts exactly. A more layered experience would keep everyone happy. A newbie-friendly front and 'Advanced' features still there but hidden away for the purist. Insisting that everyone should become computer literate may be principled (or elitist) but then Linux will be stuck with under 2% penetration. I think 20% penetration will be better for everyone, including the die-hard purists, even if that means compromises will have to be made.

For hardware, pre-configured systems would be an idea but see what happened to early Asus EeePCs when Microsoft put pressure on them. Badged Linux Compatible Certified, under licence, and community maintained lists of known Linux-friendly hardware would help reassure buyers and focus the minds of manufacturers.

But once people get a system that works, compatibility and software availability are the key. Enthusiasts may think that everything Linux is great, but for more demanding tasks many applications are simply not good enough. Eg I know at least two professional Photoshop users who genuinely tried to introduce Gimp into their workflow and teach image editing to learners from disadvantaged backgrounds who couldn't afford Photoshop. Both gave up. I also gave up ditching Windows because of LibreOffice incompatibilities and general lack of serious PDF editing software.

I think it all boils down to strategic coordination, where excessive diversity becomes fragmentation. Then again, many developers may be happy being part of a 2% they can call their own.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by shawnhcorey » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:07 am

What sends them back? Linux does not meet their expectations.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Citizen229 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:49 am

Gaming would be the number 1 reason. Vulkan is here and starting to chew its way in, but open GL didnt kill off directx either. On top of, the best DX compatability you can get is DX9, under linux. Stuff like that matters to gamers. Soon as gamers are converted, they will establish like OS for family so their assistance in repair is not for 2 OS's.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Schallaven » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:35 am

I agree that expectations ("Oh, a free-beer Windows with a lot of free-beer software which runs super duper fast!!!!111") and the unwillingness to sacrifice some things ("Oh, I can't play all my games anymore with 200 FPS?????????") (in exchange for getting a lot of other advantages) and unwillingness in change of mentality ("Do I really have to type my root/admin password everytime?????" "Where can I download install the latest drivers for my USB LED lamp????" "I just downloaded these random software packages from the internet and want to run/compile them.") are IMHO the top reasons why people get frustrated and go back.

Also, a small note on the Linux-has-complex-issues thing: Well, especially gaming is a juggling act in Windows. People are just willing (and trained!) to install different GByte-in-size graphic/sound/mainboard chipset drivers and make several tweaks to the system for different games to run smoothly (for some reasons the optimization of game engines is now mainly outsourced to graphic drivers for all these AAA titles). If you destroy the system, just reinstall. The common solution for everything. But in Linux editing a conf-file, copy something to the terminal, or installing something from the repos is already too much to ask sometimes.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:44 pm

The problem is conf files can be pretty arcane at times.... that alone makes it dangerous to allow nevermind suggest newish/normal users tweak them willy nilly unless its all toggles with comments.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:11 pm

rambo919 wrote:The problem is you are confusing dumbed down with completely dumbed down.
.................................
I could also make an argument that many people themselves these days are dumbed down but that would get mean.
I am not confusing anything. I'm saying a very simple thing:
some people are cut for it, some others aren't, and lots of us are somewhere in-between.
Those who aren't cut for it at all though, should stfu & rtfm - until AI & biotechnology 'solve' this obstacle for them.
I repeat, so that it gets deeply impressed to...grandmas, newbies, common people, you name it:
Those who aren't cut for it at all though, should stfu & rtfm - until AI & biotechnology 'solve' this obstacle for them.
And that is, for each & any piece of digital technology.

...Debian & Arch being elitist = plain nonsense. Their focus is very clear:
tech-enthusiasts / geeks, developers, and...above it all, professional administrators.
Nowhere in Arch Wiki's or the Debian's Handbook...or any other manual of theirs,
it says anything about...grandmas, aunties or the...'common man'.
Some of their users might indeed be elitists. If you've spent countless nights & yrs in front of a terminal, yes...
sometimes it does have this annoying side effect. Feel free to put them in their place if you think they over-do it.

The rest above about 'dumped down' computers: apparently, the people making such statements,
don't remember how painful most (not all) Linux distros were before Ubuntu in 2004.
And they don't remember because by the time they were quite likely drinking the Microsoft XP cool-aid
(and probably continued drinking such until at least a decade later on...).

And now, we are...14 yrs past the Ubuntu breaking motto "Linux for Human Beings".
Surely things evolved & became way even easier since then?
Unless someone thinks the clock stopped back then ('XP was great' and similar claptrap).
So - at what exactly point are we nowadays? Allow me...

We are at the point where even a trained monkey can use / understand the basics of Ubuntu & it's derivatives.
Exactly in the same way a trained monkey can use / understand the basics of Windows' variants.
The emphasis is on the basics, not in the...monkeys.
Of course, there's always room for improvement, both for the basics and, why not, for 'the rest' as well.
The clock hasn't stopped, neither it will. But...
rambo919 wrote:I could also make an argument that many people themselves these days are dumbed down but that would get mean.

...exactly. Some people (2%?5%? 20%? 50% maybe?), expect the following to take place from a...'computer':
press Power button, insert coin, press another double-clickety-click button, and then, automagically...
the fat lady (Aretha Franklin?) sings the blues.

2018 Newsflash: sorry - this isn't (and never was) a personal computer. This is a...jukebox.
You were sold the wrong device - ask for a refund.

PS: ''Human being" living in a free-software world or...trained monkey in a walled garden? The choice is yours.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:22 pm

Brilliant post! Yes, I completely agree here. Winders just works. No command line tinkering, no going under the hood to tinker with something, no having to write a script to get your wifi working. Linux, take heed!
So I haven't used Windows in quite a long time. But as I recall, doing an install of Windows on brand new hardware, doesn't just work. It takes hours of jumping around, downloading drivers, getting this thing or that thing, to make it all work. Not mention what feels like days of waiting for it to update that first time. You can't compare the experience you get on a machine that came preinstalled with Windows to what you get when you install Linux yourself. I have a System76 machine here that came with Ubuntu and guess what? It just works.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:35 pm

Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?
= good Windows service to noobs at a fair price, eg M$ developed many Windows GUI-based settings/tools for noobs so that they weren't stumped by CLI-based settings/tools and support for 10 years.

Caveat; ... Unfortunately, Win 10's forced auto-updates/upgrades have been driving away noobs, eg towards MacOS, iOS, ChromeOS and Android.

Compare which OS is more complex for "monkeys" or noobs ...
http://home.bt.com/tech-gadgets/computi ... 3994684527 (10 things to do after you upgrade your computer to Windows 10)
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinux ... amon-first (10 things to do first in Linux Mint 19 Cinnamon)

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:45 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:35 pm
Unfortunately, Win 10's forced auto-updates/upgrades have been driving away noobs, eg towards MacOS, iOS, ChromeOS and Android.
And to Linux. Noobs such as me and my mother (soon to turn 80). We're both doing fine on Mint and not running anywhere.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Moem wrote:.
.
noob
noun; informal
noun: noob; plural noun: noobs

a person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.
I doubt you and ! are noobs. Your 80 yo mother, yes.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pjotr » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:51 pm

@ michael louwe: if you're so convinced of the ease and quality of Windows, what are you still doing on this forum?

Wouldn't you be much happier on this forum, with like-minded people:
https://windowsforum.com/

I'm sure they'll appreciate your preference for Windows there. Unlike here.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:53 pm

Pjotr wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:51 pm
@ michael louwe: if you're so convinced of the ease and quality of Windows, what are you still doing on this forum?
This isn't a religious war like US politics. I'm convinced of the easy and quality of Windows, too, yet I also use Linux. I even use Linux on Windows (WSL). I also use a bicycle in addition to a car. The right tool for the job, you know?!

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pjotr » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:03 pm

gm10 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:53 pm
Pjotr wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:51 pm
@ michael louwe: if you're so convinced of the ease and quality of Windows, what are you still doing on this forum?
This isn't a religious war like US politics. I'm convinced of the easy and quality of Windows, too, yet I also use Linux. I even use Linux on Windows (WSL). I also use a bicycle in addition to a car. The right tool for the job, you know?!
No problem. I consider you as a very constructive, knowledgeable and helpful member of the Linux Mint community. An asset to this forum. Unfortunately I can't say the same thing about one or two others.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:16 pm

Pjotr wrote:@ michael louwe: if you're so convinced of the ease and quality of Windows, what are you still doing on this forum?
Are you telling me to leave this forum.?

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pjotr » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:19 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:16 pm
Pjotr wrote:@ michael louwe: if you're so convinced of the ease and quality of Windows, what are you still doing on this forum?
Are you telling me to leave this forum.?
No. I'm simply asking a polite question.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:19 am

michael louwe wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:36 pm
noob
noun; informal
noun: noob; plural noun: noobs

a person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.
I doubt you and ! are noobs. Your 80 yo mother, yes.
That's funny! My mother by definition has had a lot more time available to use computers, and you don't know her... for all you know she could have been a programmer since 30 years. There were lots of women into programming back in the eighties, much more so than now.
But she is not a programmer, she is a very normal computer user who switched to Linux two years ago. I consider myself a noob in many ways because I switched less than three years ago myself.

Personally I translate the word noob as newcomer. And I certainly am exactly that. Who do you mean by '!'?
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:39 am

thx-1138 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:11 pm
snip
A lot of this is true yes but there is also a lot of that is comparing apples to oranges. For example the focus of arch might not be elitest but a large number of arch users are in comparison with other types of linux, this is a sociological thing not a technical thing.

You are completely correct about people having short historical memories but your idea of "trained monkey" might not be everyone else's idea of "trained monkey".... you can be a bit judgemental here and there.

Winxp was a security nightmare yes but it was effective in what it did, credit where credit is due and all that.

The common obsession with "never install anything outside of the repo's" is effectively it's own walled garden.

What people in between want is typically a winxp/win7-like experience for normal usage without all the backend problems. Like you said linux has improved yes.... still far from perfect though. LM has done a LOT to strive towards that goal but obviously there is always room for improvement to ward off the stagnation ubuntu itself has semi-reached.... stagnation is nothing more than slow death.

At this point the only things still keeping most people from linux is relatively poor gaming support, lack of specific (alternatives are mostly a waste of time) legacy apps and poor interoperability with current windows networks and filesystems (both has gotten better but still has problems). A lot of people only want emails and browsing which is done and dusted, a lot also want everything else on a least technical as possible level which is not so done and dusted. Insulting people is no way to convince them your way is better.... insulting their OS though is fine just be fair and accurate.... except with apple.... apple is creepy and apple people are zombies.

Anyway, the problem is designing a system that is both idiot proof but extensible to serious users at a moments notice, difficult but not impossible. At the moment the best way to do this for me seems to use something like a slightly better gnome 3 (which really does seem designed with trained monkeys in mind) for regular use and then switching to a cinnamon (or whatever else) type interface for real work. Since having two interfaces running side by side and switching between them like virtual desktops would probably be inefficient it's probably better to start thinking in terms of dual-DE installs which do not interfere with each other which means sharing the exact same config apps, a simple solution to a complex problem. That of course does not eliminate the other difficulties but it's a good direction. Of course most of us on this forum would probably never use the dumbed down side but that's a personal preference thing.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:41 am

JosephM wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:22 pm
So I haven't used Windows in quite a long time. But as I recall, doing an install of Windows on brand new hardware, doesn't just work. It takes hours of jumping around, downloading drivers, getting this thing or that thing, to make it all work. Not mention what feels like days of waiting for it to update that first time. You can't compare the experience you get on a machine that came preinstalled with Windows to what you get when you install Linux yourself. I have a System76 machine here that came with Ubuntu and guess what? It just works.
You are confusing the setup energy cost with day to day use energy cost.... most users never needed to worry about the former and still dont so it's effectively invisible to them.

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