Package managers... Worst part of linux

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boyo1991
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Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by boyo1991 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:14 pm

"oh look these guys support linux! I think I'll install!" *Gets tarball Everytime*

My biggest gripe with Linux. And there's not very many, Linux mint is currently my main operating system as a matter of fact, as of right now it's the only operating systems I run. But package managers. One of the reasons I love anything Debian based is knowing I will be getting the most support.

Why can't we have a centralized package manager?

We can't run everything in shell.

My thought (not a suggestion obviously) is that it would be easier to integrate a central type of package management system into Linux kernal itself. So that all Linux can run under the same banner and developers don't need to compile into different systems/be prepare for different bits of different package managers that they need to tweak for.

I don't like using tarballs. They aren't hard but there's always that moment of *fingers crossed!*

This was sort of a rant, I'm sure I'll get over it. But I also want to hear thoughts on a centralized package management untility..
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catweazel
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:46 pm

boyo1991 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:14 pm
My thought (not a suggestion obviously) is that it would be easier to integrate a central type of package management system into Linux kernal itself.
kernel : noun
2. the central or most important part of something.

Torvalds would go into human meltdown mode, implode then explode in an unheard of shimmering rage. I wouldn't blame him.
boyo1991 wrote:So that all Linux can run under the same banner and developers don't need to compile into different systems/be prepare for different bits of different package managers that they need to tweak for.
Flatpak, Snap...

You're a bit behind the times, I think.

Cheers.
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 pm

hi catweazel...i do not know if i will be castigated for this, but i purged "Flatpak" from my system...i just dont believe in an installation behemoth or leviathan, (as described in the book of Job), that is not a .deb install, or what can be downloaded from the regular repositories...well thats just me...do not think i will ever be convinced of either Snap or Flatpak...I know that your the OFFICIAL Curmudgeon in Chief...im hoping to be your apprentice...the Curmudgeon in Training and in Wait...lol...DAMIEN
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:09 pm

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 pm
hi catweazel...i do not know if i will be castigated for this, but i purged "Flatpak" from my system...i just dont believe in an installation behemoth or leviathan, (as described in the book of Job), that is not a .deb install, or what can be downloaded from the regular repositories...well thats just me...do not think i will ever be convinced of either Snap or Flatpak...DAMIEN
The point is that Snaps, Flatpacks and AppImages all meet the OP's criteria. "a .deb install, or what can be downloaded from the regular repositories" do not.
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:18 pm

ya...i did get that...im just a "puritan" i guess...i really do not have a formulative reason why im so dead said against them...just something about the what i consider "extra, expanded, part of the packaging" that is in these pkgs that i just dont understand is all...DAMIEN
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by richyrich » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:40 pm

Please take the time to put yourself in the developer's shoes.

Create a package that contains everything that is needed (all dependencies) for multiple distributions, and multiple versions of those distributions, into one single package . . OR, having to compile that single package one at a time, separately for each distro, and separately for each version of every one of those distros . . :?

If you were the developer, which would you choose ?

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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:43 pm

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:18 pm
ya...i did get that...im just a "puritan" i guess...i really do not have a formulative reason why im so dead said against them...just something about the what i consider "extra, expanded, part of the packaging" that is in these pkgs that i just dont understand is all...DAMIEN
You actually raise an interesting question, Damien; How far should one go with expressing opinions when answering technical questions?

My view is that opinions have no place in technical support, and that they should only be expressed if they've been asked for, or when the OP may be setting themselves up for disaster because they've misunderstood something vital. Responding to a post that requests assistance with "I don't understand why you would use or do X because I don't like X" doesn't add but only takes away from what the original asker needs, thus it lowers the overall quality of support provided to those in need. My point here is that technical questions demand technical responses, not opinions.

Cheers.
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:44 pm

richyrich wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:40 pm
Please take the time to put yourself in the developer's shoes.
It's good to see you back. You were missing in action for a while.
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:06 pm

hi catweazel and richyrich...both of you are of course correct...i have a feeling that all of us can be guilty of expressing our own personal opinions or bias based on either our age, personal experiences, as well as years of experience that really shouldnt be a part of answering technical questions which, i for one, need to plead guilty, mia culpa, mia culpa...this is of course a part of the human condition but this is of course, not any real excuse...i have always found in life, even in family situations that it is an "art form" to be able to divorce personal opinions from just good old fashioned proper advice and guidance...i do like hearing this as it makes me try to resolve, all the more, to attempt to divorce my personal opinion from the questions at hand....thank you both for the timely admonition...DAMIEN
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:11 pm

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:06 pm
this is of course a part of the human condition
I'm not afflicted by that due to not being human :)
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:27 pm

you are, of course a "curmudgeon" which is a uniquely "human", attribute/detriment,...or are you a "legend in your own mind"...lol...DAMIEN
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:32 pm

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:27 pm
you are, of course a "curmudgeon" which is a uniquely "human"
What rule says that only humans are people? Being an alien, for example, doesn't necessarily preclude the alien from also being a person.

curmudgeon : noun
a bad-tempered or surly person.

See? Person, not 'human'.
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:42 pm

after reading that reply, i had to pick myself up off the floor laughing uproariously...my dual majors in college were history and english, my dual minors were theology and psychology...i think if you were one of my professors in my course of studies, my thinking might well have been as uniquely and pleasingly as warped as your own...lol...lol...DAMIEN
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:12 pm

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:42 pm
after reading that reply, i had to pick myself up off the floor laughing uproariously...my dual majors in college were history and english, my dual minors were theology and psychology...i think if you were one of my professors in my course of studies, my thinking might well have been as uniquely and pleasingly as warped as your own...lol...lol...DAMIEN
I have a knack for the warped :)
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by all41 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:25 pm

My view is that opinions have no place in technical support, and that they should only be expressed if they've been asked for
hear, hear

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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by Portreve » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:08 am

Well, to address the OP's point, every single distro could use deb or any other package management system. The problem here is that they'd have to want to.

I've experienced a few different package management systems over the years, and frankly my main squeeze is deb, period. I find other systems just tend to break a little too easily. Then again, Debian is one of the most rock-solid distributions one can get, and it can make that claim while supporting an absurd variety of hardware.
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by lsemmens » Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:26 am

My opinion of your opinion is that your opinion of my opinion is nobodies opinion but your own. ;)
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:21 am

hi catweazel...you said "I have a knack for the warped"...consider me "knackered"...lol...DAMIEN

ps...portreve...thanks for the support there for .deb...
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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by rambo919 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:32 am

It still amazes me that people keep promoting flatpak/appimage/etc as if they are mature viable universal systems. Flatpak for one causes an amazing amount of bloat as currently implemented and essentially demands you bit by bit re-download half the installed system (slight hyperbole) and works almost like a windows or apple store where you have no clearly indicated feedback of what goes where it just happens and takes GB's of downloading..... there is nothing efficient or non-messy about it and it does not even goto a separate section but installs it's parts fragmentally across the OS.... how is this not a regression similar to the earlier practice of some apps putting addons or documents that need non-root access in the /usr folder?

This is a major problem begging to happen.

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Re: Package managers... Worst part of linux

Post by boyo1991 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:54 am

I understand the problems in my own argument (hopefully my statement on it being more of a rant alluded to that well enough). From a developer standpoint, myself included, due to it, I merely use python instead, or web technologies, as they are standard accross many platforms (I said I'm a developer, not a GOOD developer lol).

I just feel like maybe... Well here's an example for real wold use:

I write something dumb in python, like I like to do. I want my friend to give it a go, but they don't know too much about how to run my file *effectively for what my console program is in the first place* its just more difficult for them to do it unless it's a package. At best, I explain a website that will interpret it (most of the stuff I write is not hardware level). It's a rather obscure example because I don't have many personal friends that run Linux at all. But I hope this goes to show the point I'm getting at.
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