What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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MurphCID
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:20 am

Arch_Enemy wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:40 am
(I think that was his review of Arch...)
From what I hear about Arch, that might not be an inaccurate comment.....

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:42 pm

MurphCID wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:20 am
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:40 am
(I think that was his review of Arch...)
From what I hear about Arch, that might not be an inaccurate comment.....
You see my username, right? There is a REASON I use Mint! :wink:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:04 pm

Arch_Enemy wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:42 pm
MurphCID wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:20 am
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:40 am
(I think that was his review of Arch...)
From what I hear about Arch, that might not be an inaccurate comment.....
You see my username, right? There is a REASON I use Mint! :wink:
LOL!

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Inundated » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:28 pm

Taxes.

In this case, my city tax return. Since I don't have an "electronic filing code" (not sure why I never got one, I've lived at the same address for five years), I have to use the city's "fillable PDF form"...in lieu of printing it out and hand writing my calculations.

https://www.akronohio.gov/cms/site/METHODS/index.html

The "fillable form" requires, yes, requires, Adobe Acrobat Reader to do the automatic calculations before printing out the finished form. It doesn't work within Chrome.

A quick check of the Google Machine tells me that Adobe had an Acrobat Reader for Linux, but abandoned it in roughly 2013.

I suppose I could see if Wine supports the current Windows version, but tax day is tomorrow, so I booted up the Windows 10 partition on my aging/soon to be replaced laptop, filled it out, saved the PDF to disk and then E-mailed it to myself...printing the result from my Linux Mint machine.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:08 pm

Inundated wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:28 pm
Taxes.
...
The "fillable form" requires, yes, requires, Adobe Acrobat Reader to do the automatic calculations before printing out the finished form. It doesn't work within Chrome.
I just tried it with Okular (after about 5 minutes fighting the "Captcha") & it didn't seem to work on that either, although I don't have the necessary details to fill in, not being a US resident. Might work with the correct details, though.

GB tax is "going digital" as well. I'll have to try one of the UK tax forms. If they, too, require Adobe the only options for those of us who are Windows-free (& don't have a Mac either) are a Windows virtual machine or, as you said, Wine. Or borrow a Windows machine or a Mac. Ugh. :evil:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Portreve » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:01 pm

On the matter of taxes, I filed mine in early January and have long since gotten my refund. I use Intuit TurboTax online, and have done now for many years.

Perhaps some states and other countries are a******s about this sort of thing; nevertheless, I would not condone running non-free whole software (I make limited exception for a very few codecs and that sort of thing) and I guess would seek a more conventional alternative if there was no other technological possibility but to run a non-free program.

As for handling PDFs, I haven't encountered a "form" PDF in quite a while. Honestly, the only thing I use PDFs for is interchanging them with someone else when I've built a layout in a desktop publishing program (Scribus, obviously) or created something and there's no guarantee of adequate compatibility otherwise (creating a document in LibreOffice where the layout really matters and the other person uses, z.B., M$ Office).
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by murray » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:55 pm

BG405 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:08 pm
GB tax is "going digital" as well. I'll have to try one of the UK tax forms. If they, too, require Adobe the only options for those of us who are Windows-free (& don't have a Mac either) are a Windows virtual machine or, as you said, Wine. Or borrow a Windows machine or a Mac. Ugh. :evil:
Interesting that some countries are using PDFs for tax returns. Here in New Zealand our tax department has allowed electronic filing for quite some time but they do it by allowing you to log into their website and then filling in normal HTML forms. This allows them to pre-populate a lot of the fields with the information they already know about you, and of course it also means that any old web browser can be used to file the tax return.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:41 am

Oz also allows for electronic lodgement. It's been years since I've done a tax return so am unsure if they've hit the 21st century yet. Last time I did one it was via a downloaded program that would install itself in Windwoes. That as about 2003 IIRC.

MODERATOR NOTE - - that eTax would work in ./wine - - you couldn't print for some reason.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:32 am

Ugh, the Insertion of the Royal Shaft got me good this year. So much for upgrades, and pretty much any fun spending.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Inundated » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:18 pm

BG405 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:08 pm
Inundated wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:28 pm
Taxes.
...
The "fillable form" requires, yes, requires, Adobe Acrobat Reader to do the automatic calculations before printing out the finished form. It doesn't work within Chrome.
I just tried it with Okular (after about 5 minutes fighting the "Captcha") & it didn't seem to work on that either, although I don't have the necessary details to fill in, not being a US resident. Might work with the correct details, though.

GB tax is "going digital" as well. I'll have to try one of the UK tax forms. If they, too, require Adobe the only options for those of us who are Windows-free (& don't have a Mac either) are a Windows virtual machine or, as you said, Wine. Or borrow a Windows machine or a Mac. Ugh. :evil:
The city does electronic filing, but will not let you do it unless you get a "Personal Filing Code" (generally sent in the mail right before tax season).

In this case, I had to have my now-old laptop with Windows 10 to use Adobe Acrobat to do it. My new/used laptop has a Windows 7 (yes, 7) partition. When Win 7 hits EOL next year, I'll probably reclaim that space...
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by [rua] » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:32 pm

It's been said already but to repeat, "noob" - man, do I dislike that term. So derogatory. So L33T 90s!

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:17 pm

[rua] wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:32 pm
It's been said already but to repeat, "noob" - man, do I dislike that term. So derogatory. So L33T 90s!
Maybe, but I don't think so, at least not on here. The term is used loosely & is often cited by people new on here calling themselves "noobs". I don't see what is wrong with being new to something & there's definitely something going right if Linux is actually attracting more "noobs".

The attitude on other fora may differ .. but generally, probably not by very much.

There are a number of terms used in the English language which have been considered derogatory by some, at various points in history, but certainly not by all. Best to just disregard any perceived negative connotations, if not explicity negative, of course. I've seen a number of instances on here where stuff gets misinterpreted. It usually isn't meant to be derogatory, as far as I can tell. :)
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:40 am

BG405 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:17 pm
[rua] wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:32 pm
It's been said already but to repeat, "noob" - man, do I dislike that term. So derogatory. So L33T 90s!
Maybe, but I don't think so, at least not on here. The term is used loosely & is often cited by people new on here calling themselves "noobs". I don't see what is wrong with being new to something & there's definitely something going right if Linux is actually attracting more "noobs".

The attitude on other fora may differ .. but generally, probably not by very much.

There are a number of terms used in the English language which have been considered derogatory by some, at various points in history, but certainly not by all. Best to just disregard any perceived negative connotations, if not explicity negative, of course. I've seen a number of instances on here where stuff gets misinterpreted. It usually isn't meant to be derogatory, as far as I can tell. :)
Noob dosn't bother me, terms like "RTFM". "Luser", and L33t bother me.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Crippled » Tue May 28, 2019 2:11 am

vladtepes wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:05 pm
Looking at user group 2 - what reasons do you think send new people running away from Linux?
The command line being rudely forced onto them is the number 1 reason that chases them away from Linux. With Windows XP and later I "never" had to use the command line and it was "never" pushed onto me in the Windows community. I guarantee that the guilty ones will deny this is the number 1 reason and will reply with pure illogic.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Tue May 28, 2019 2:18 am

Crippled wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:11 am
The command line being rudely forced onto them [...] I guarantee that the guilty ones will deny this is the number 1 reason and will reply with pure illogic.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about receiving free help here?! LMFAO. (blocked)
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Tue May 28, 2019 3:11 am

Crippled wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:11 am
vladtepes wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:05 pm
Looking at user group 2 - what reasons do you think send new people running away from Linux?
The command line being rudely forced onto them is the number 1 reason that chases them away from Linux.
I think there is a misunderstanding here...
When people come asking for help, it's very often the easiest way to help them by asking them to copy and paste a command into their terminal and have them paste back the output. Not because anyone wants to 'force' anyone to use the terminal, but because it saves so much time. Desktop environments differ; navigating through the menus of someone elses computer, that you cannot see, is exhausting. A command line however should pretty much work the same on all Mint systems. So it's reliable and predictable.

Also, for some commands that can be given in the terminal, there is no GUI equivalent. Try fixing an ownership problem in your home directory by finding all files that are owned by root and changing ownership of those files back to the standard user. I can guarantee that the command line is by far the fastest way to do this.

There is nothing rude about it. It's simply efficient. And the people you are calling rude here are the people giving their free time to help you. There's only so many hours in the day and they are using the command line in order to make the most of that time, by helping as many people as possible.

Now do you understand why I do not agree that gm10 is trolling when he writes what he wrote above? From his perspective, you are probably biting the hand that feeds you.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Tue May 28, 2019 6:25 am

Moem wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:11 am
Crippled wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:11 am
vladtepes wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:05 pm
Looking at user group 2 - what reasons do you think send new people running away from Linux?
The command line being rudely forced onto them is the number 1 reason that chases them away from Linux.
I think there is a misunderstanding here...
When people come asking for help, it's very often the easiest way to help them by asking them to copy and paste a command into their terminal and have them paste back the output. Not because anyone wants to 'force' anyone to use the terminal, but because it saves so much time. Desktop environments differ; navigating through the menus of someone elses computer, that you cannot see, is exhausting. A command line however should pretty much work the same on all Mint systems. So it's reliable and predictable.

Also, for some commands that can be given in the terminal, there is no GUI equivalent. Try fixing an ownership problem in your home directory by finding all files that are owned by root and changing ownership of those files back to the standard user. I can guarantee that the command line is by far the fastest way to do this.

There is nothing rude about it. It's simply efficient. And the people you are calling rude here are the people giving their free time to help you. There's only so many hours in the day and they are using the command line in order to make the most of that time, by helping as many people as possible.

Now do you understand why I do not agree that gm10 is trolling when he writes what he wrote above? From his perspective, you are probably biting the hand that feeds you.
Moem, I think I understand the poster's comment somewhat from a newbie perspective since my early experiments with Mandrake Linux 7 had a similar experience where the people back then were command line commandos who, while they were probably decent people, considered anyone who could not use the command line like a pro as a "Luser", and free to have a great deal of scorn and contempt heaped upon them for not being a command line commando. While I like using it for quick and dirty fixes, if I had the same experience now that I had then, I would again leave Linux and go back to Windows/Mac O/S since I could generally fix things with a little registry hacking, and some gui tools. There is still an obnoxious minority out there in Linux-land that considers anyone who would use a GUI tool instead of the command line to be a complete "luser" unworthy to even look at a linux distro much less profane it with their unsanctified hands.

I have found the Mint community to be one of the most helpful, welcoming communities in Linux-land that I have ever experienced, and for that I am grateful. I now have a second device running only Mint, and have never had the response in this community that I had back in the bad old days of Mandrake (which back then was considered a "Noob" or "unworthy" distro since it had so many automated features, and was not solely run on command line, and did not use "apt-get" (it was Red Hat based, not Debian). In someways it reminds me of the Debian vs Red Hat vs Slackware flame wars of the late 1990's early 2000's. Or the VI(M) vs Emacs holy wars.

As for the OP and his disdain for the command line, perhaps he had a bad experience, as did I when he was first getting started. Or perhaps he has never been shown/taught how useful it can be in RL?

Crippled

Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Crippled » Tue May 28, 2019 11:21 am

Moem wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:11 am
Crippled wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:11 am
vladtepes wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:05 pm
Looking at user group 2 - what reasons do you think send new people running away from Linux?
The command line being rudely forced onto them is the number 1 reason that chases them away from Linux.
I think there is a misunderstanding here...
When people come asking for help, it's very often the easiest way to help them by asking them to copy and paste a command into their terminal and have them paste back the output. Not because anyone wants to 'force' anyone to use the terminal, but because it saves so much time. Desktop environments differ; navigating through the menus of someone elses computer, that you cannot see, is exhausting. A command line however should pretty much work the same on all Mint systems. So it's reliable and predictable.

Also, for some commands that can be given in the terminal, there is no GUI equivalent. Try fixing an ownership problem in your home directory by finding all files that are owned by root and changing ownership of those files back to the standard user. I can guarantee that the command line is by far the fastest way to do this.

There is nothing rude about it. It's simply efficient. And the people you are calling rude here are the people giving their free time to help you. There's only so many hours in the day and they are using the command line in order to make the most of that time, by helping as many people as possible.

No, do you understand why I do not agree that gm10 is trolling when he writes what he wrote above? From his perspective, you are probably biting the hand that feeds you.
No, I didn't misunderstand. It's easy for you because you know the command line, but it's not easy for them. It has been my experience in the Linux community that there are 2 types that know the command line and how they president it. It's been my personal experience that most but not all are type 1, that will force the command line onto users in a very rude manner expecting them to understand that gibberish and when they don't, they attack them. Then there is type 2 which are the ones who are not rude about presenting the command line to users by telling them what commands to copy and paste in the terminal which is fine. But because of the rude ones, it chases people away from Linux regardless the reasons for using the command line. I know already the reasons why the command line is used for support in Linux since it has been explained to me before as I have been using Linux since Sept. 2015. Just because someone is giving free support is not an excuse to be rude and attack them. I was given free support in the Windows community when I use to use it and I was never treated like this. I don't know which type you are, but I hope you are type 2 and the rest of the Linux community. I have no problem receiving support via the command line as long as they are type 2 and I will copy and paste the commands in the terminal. I hope you understand what I mean.

Crippled

Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Crippled » Tue May 28, 2019 11:25 am

MurphCID wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:25 am
Moem wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 3:11 am
Crippled wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:11 am

The command line being rudely forced onto them is the number 1 reason that chases them away from Linux.

Moem, I think I understand the poster's comment somewhat from a newbie perspective since my early experiments with Mandrake Linux 7 had a similar experience where the people back then were command line commandos who, while they were probably decent people, considered anyone who could not use the command line like a pro as a "Luser", and free to have a great deal of scorn and contempt heaped upon them for not being a command line commando. While I like using it for quick and dirty fixes, if I had the same experience now that I had then, I would again leave Linux and go back to Windows/Mac O/S since I could generally fix things with a little registry hacking, and some gui tools. There is still an obnoxious minority out there in Linux-land that considers anyone who would use a GUI tool instead of the command line to be a complete "luser" unworthy to even look at a linux distro much less profane it with their unsanctified hands.

I have found the Mint community to be one of the most helpful, welcoming communities in Linux-land that I have ever experienced, and for that I am grateful. I now have a second device running only Mint, and have never had the response in this community that I had back in the bad old days of Mandrake (which back then was considered a "Noob" or "unworthy" distro since it had so many automated features, and was not solely run on command line, and did not use "apt-get" (it was Red Hat based, not Debian). In someways it reminds me of the Debian vs Red Hat vs Slackware flame wars of the late 1990's early 2000's. Or the VI(M) vs Emacs holy wars.

As for the OP and his disdain for the command line, perhaps he had a bad experience, as did I when he was first getting started. Or perhaps he has never been shown/taught how useful it can be in RL?
Correct. The only difference is in my personal experience I find it to be a majority rather than a minority.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Tue May 28, 2019 12:33 pm

Crippled wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:21 am
It's easy for you because you know the command line
I really don't. I couldn't command line myself out of a wet paper bag if my life depended on it.
Crippled wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:21 am
Just because someone is giving free support is not an excuse to be rude and attack them.
I agree completely! :D

I'm glad to hear that you can copy&paste commands and their output. That's all that's expected of you in this forum.
Some of us here use the command line, some do not; I'm among the latter group and no one has ever given me grief for it. But it's good to realise how useful and versatile a tool it is, even if you don't know any commands yourself.
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