Flat 'Modern' GUI design and where it comes from (and reflections of Clems March 2019 blog post in relation to that)

[ZakGordon]

So it seems the Mint team is having a hard time recently, a 'not as loved as hoped' release of LM 19 being a big part of that it seems. I accidentally stumbled upon Clem's recent blog that digs into some of that here:

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736

And i can certainly empathize with the effect on moral that developing free (and popular) software can have. All i can offer Clem and the Linux Mint team is that since the shift that took place in Windows 8 (GUI and the start of shifts in the underlying business model) i discovered and loved that Linux Mint was what it was, a near as you can get 'windows' experience under Linux. That is a really incredible achievement when you consider the multi-billions that slosh around MS as an OS developer! So don't give up hope, Linux Mint is perhaps more needed now than at any other time and seeing how MS wants to become the new 'Apple', this need is not going away anytime soon.

Still the main issue i wanted to talk about in this post was about GUI and where the idea that 'modern' GUI equates to one thing and not another, and why confusion reigns all across the computer, technology and GUI development sector due to one specific thing. Namely Windows 8 (link to W8 GUI example):

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Windows+8+des ... &ia=images

That 'flat tile' design has had a hugely disproportionate effect on GUI design (and application and website GUI design as a whole). I'm here to argue it has not been an overall 'good idea' and why i believe that to be provably true, and why as GUI designers we need to 'move on' from it as quickly as possible, despite the 'trend' being to turn everything into 'Windows 8 like' GUI. A quick wiki link to Windows 8:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8

And in particular you need to scroll down to the 'Reception' and 'Market Share' sections to follow my line of argument here. Namely that flat 'modern' GUI design that has 'taken over' GUI design comes from one of MS's least popular OS releases, and so much so was it unpopular they released W8.1 (which reverted to the more traditional Windows style GUI) and stopped support for the original W8 release. So here we have a widely considered 'design failure' that has carried on reverberating that design all over the GUI design sphere (OS, application and website). This just makes no sense to me. Why are GUI designers still trying to 'Windows 8' the look of everything when it was actually very unpopular?

So i hope what i'm getting across is that Linux Mint should not feel the need to follow the crowd here, as it is likely in error or to put it another way an example of the 'tyranny of the masses' in relation to GUI design. Focus less on the 'modern trends' and more on functionality and stability please

And i probably need not remind people here why Windows 10 is as 'popular' as it currently is, MS aggressively ensured this was to be (and that was a large part of why i ended up here in the first place). Windows is not better (or more popular), and has not been better (or more popular) due to the design overhaul introduced in Windows 8, and they themselves are still rolling back from the errors they made in that shift in the first place. One day i'm hoping the GUI design guru's will wake up and smell the reality of all this and we can get back to having nice looking AND functional GUI.

So the main point of this post is to plea with the Linux Mint GUI team, and hopefully make a reasonable case, why they should not simply copy the modern trend in GUI design. Make your own path, keep Mint attractive and functional over what i consider mostly illogical GUI design shifts.

There is a bigger part to all this too, and Clem alluded to it in the 'google-fication' aspect. Modern day computer use is less about the user end experience of a computer as a tool (where things function in a logical and well learned manner) more than the exploitation of the user, either via 'search learning' what that user wants to see most (and then provides the echo chamber that is difficult to get out off) and gathering the users data to sell to third parties. We are fully in the era of where tech uses us, more than we use it. Linux Mint does not have to be part of that (and isn't), but that 'culture' and 'attitude' can start somewhere and could be as innocuous as starting with modern flat GUI design. Maybe

And if too much has already been changed, perhaps you could include a 'legacy GUI' option for those of us that really do not like modern flat GUI design

[gm10]

Would have been faster to simply switch to a theme you like, getting that worked up over a single theme in Mint is a bit much, no?

[cliffcoggin]

Thank you Zak, for enunciating my own feelings about the trend towards the flat appearance of modern displays which I have long felt sacrificed functionality on the altar of design. The tendency to make GUIs harder to read and interpret and use goes against the first principle of ergonomics which can be summarised as "make the machine fit the man, not the obverse." In other words make the machine easy to use rather than intentionally make it more difficult than it needs to be. Examples of poor design that irritate me in GUIs include buttons that don't look like buttons, and low contrast text.

Like you, I hope the Mint team will resist the herd instinct in this matter, and use the talent they clearly possess to develop a GUI that is both functional and attractive.

[gm10]

Since I seem to have trouble making people understand today, I'll draw you a picture:

Mint has 2 themes of its own, only one of them is flat, the other one decidedly not, and there's thousands of additional themes you can install, I'm sure there are plenty non-flat variants as well. You guys are getting worked up over nothing.

[Portreve]

I have watched this march from (I apologize, I know I've known the term in the past) realistic, metaphor-based design which, to be fair, Apple raised to a high art with Mac OS X 10.0 - 10.6 and various versions of iOS, to Google's switch to Material Design and the resultant flatscape which has now infected every corner of the technology sphere.

The Flat UI concept is one I've never asked for, it's one I've never welcomed, and it's one I wish LM and everyone else would kick to the curb.

All of that said, Clem's April blog has been twisted to try and make it look as though LM's development team is despondent and the future of LM is somehow in doubt. Way too much has been made of what was actually said

[8 ball]

...getting that worked up over a single theme in Mint is a bit much, no?

I don't see anyone getting worked up, except maybe you.

I agree with zak here, although I think tablets have a lot to do with it. On the limited, simplistic interface of a tablet or phone the flat aesthetic makes a lot of sense. On the laptop/desktop, it's just an unnecessary limitation. People seem to be stuck in the 'tablet=modern, tablet=flat -> flat=modern' misconception.

[Moem]

(I apologize, I know I've known the term in the past) realistic, metaphor-based design

Skeuomorphic. I can't blame you for not remembering that term. I just looked it up, too.

Clem's April blog has been twisted to try and make it look as though LM's development team is despondent and the future of LM is somehow in doubt. Way too much has been made of what was actually said

Word, brother.

[cliffcoggin]

It's unfortunate that Zak mentioned Clement's blog as it diverted attention away from the main thrust of his argument, namely the general tendency across the whole computer world for the trend to flat GUI. I am glad to see that this has been recognised by the Mint developers, and as a result some text has been given increased contrast in one the Mint 19 versions. (I don't recall specifically where as I am still on Mint 18.3.)

PS. I don't see anyone getting excited or worked up over this matter. The arguments seem calm and measured to me.

[gm10]

namely the general tendency across the whole computer world for the trend to flat GUI. I am glad to see that this has been recognised by the Mint developers, and as a result some text has been given increased contrast in one the Mint 19 versions.

I don't understand this argument. What has contrast got to do with the trend for flat design? The contrast in the Mint-Y theme was simply bad, in particular with old GTK2 apps since those had been a little overlooked when refreshing the theme (it was my continued use of the Pidgin messenger that uncovered that particular shortcoming ).

PS. I don't see anyone getting excited or worked up over this matter. The arguments seem calm and measured to me.

Maybe not my best choice of words, but what I meant was that it was a huge post with a "plea" to the devs not to follow the trend when the devs are already providing the option of a non-flat theme, so I guess really don't understand the point being made here other than expressing your preference (which would be perfectly fine, of course).

At least I hope you're not asking to have the flat theme (Mint-Y) removed and only the non-flat theme (Mint-X) be kept, because that would be silly. Flat themes are ubiquitous because they are popular. if you removed the flat variant of the Mint theme then you'd get lots of complaints from the other end of the opinion spectrum....

[Portreve]

Lo this many years later and I've yet to hear of a single report of technology users clambering for a flat UI.

On anything.

Period.

[ZakGordon]

Would have been faster to simply switch to a theme you like, getting that worked up over a single theme in Mint is a bit much, no?

Well so far in my experiences of Mint (17.1 Cinnamon and 18.3 XFCE) i have had no personal experience with any kind of 'Windows 8' GUI in Mint So mine was more a 'cautionary' post about the negatives of going down that path, and it is an opinion going against the tide of GUI design coming out of silicon valley.

I have no actual evidence of the plans for Mint other than the comments made in Clem's blog, but i hope the 'themes' options in Mint will always include 'retro' (is that what it is now?) options so we can keep it looking nice for those of us that don't love the flat Windows 8 GUI design looks?

-------

And thanks to all the replies here, you have all dug a little deeper into why i have my reservations over the march of the Windows 8 GUI across all technology.

In particular Portreve pointed out that until the flat design era, Apple was leading the way with it's very refined look (and GUI as a whole really benefited from it). I also had no idea Google was a player in the flat design thing, i had assumed it was all Windows 8 fault, so as i don't use Google it is good to have another 'enemy' to be aware off

8 ball perfectly mentioned the influence of mobile devices in all this. MS were super keen to get traction on mobile (they had their own phone/OS at some point iirc?) and it seems all this came together under Windows 8. On mobile it does indeed make sense, but the loss of functionality (as this is sadly what did take place) when designing on such a limited platform translates poorly onto desktop/laptop etc.

For myself it is that loss of clear functionality that is the 'curse' of the flat design.

It actually does not have to be that way, as we are simply talking about a GUI and you can take a current Apple OS or a pre Windows 8 OS and turn that totally flat and still have a decent functional (if slightly more ugly) GUI.

The big issue with what Windows 8 introduced was the streamlining, removal of features and depth, which was entirely the fault of the focus on mobile and those devices limited interaction capabilities vs desktop/laptop. When i say 'limited interaction' what i'm talking about is the fundamental way a person can use a small mobile device. There is less 'physically' to interact with (due to size) so that is a limit, and as you use these devices while walking around the time you can spend on them is also limited (to short-ish interactions). All that has a net negative on GUI design.

I've seen it in forum software (Discord, Discourse etc vs what we use here currently), where endless scroll replaces 'page numbers' and have had to leave some forums where the software change just made the whole forum process more time consuming and less efficient.

And it is this aspect of flat design that i am most against, as it seems (and it did not have to, but it's being married with 'mobile' just made it so) we have lost and are losing functionality and a reason to give our time for the more complex and detailed interactions we'd like to.

Flat design (in it's current ideological form) is the mobile mindset, quick cheap interaction, throw away messages you or anyone else won't go searching for, max paragraph long posts but often much less, and a general 'temporary' and 'not important' concern.

In the OS space (Windows 8 and Windows 10) it has resulted in a striped down user experience where detail is hidden away and sometimes impossible to get at.

I really don't want the best Linux distribution to go that way (if it is thinking about it even). That is my main concern and reason for posting. Let's just say the march of flat design has made me wary enough i felt the need to express this concern here just in case any Mint team people can follow the argument.

Skeuomorphic, thanks Moem! So in terms of GUI look i'm a skeuomorphic-phile i guess, over flat-design. i just like things to look 'nice' and function logically and with the ability to access the details. Windows 8 i curse you for destroying those desires!

[ravenmad]

Lo this many years later and I've yet to hear of a single report of technology users clambering for a flat UI.

On anything.

Period.

I like flat UI themes.

[ravenmad]

...
For myself it is that loss of clear functionality that is the 'curse' of the flat design.
...
The big issue with what Windows 8 introduced was the streamlining, removal of features and depth

Flat design itself doesn't cause a loss of functionality or features. The key, as always, is making sure functions are logically organised and presented to the user - make sure commonly used functions more accessible, use menus/icons/labels that make sense, etc. The reverse is also true: surfacing every single option at once is similarly bad design. Flat design must respect UX principles just like any other - any design that makes it more difficult for the end user is a bad design.

[murray]

Interesting article on Flat vs Material Design: https://theblog.adobe.com/flat-design-v ... different/ (spoiler: they're subtly different)

[ZakGordon]

Interesting article on Flat vs Material Design: https://theblog.adobe.com/flat-design-v ... different/ (spoiler: they're subtly different)

Thanks, that was a good read (if your are interested in the topic!). In particular i liked this quote:

"Flat design is best for simplistic needs while material design is best for more complex needs.", as it pretty sums up my experience of Flat Design in a nutshell!

...
For myself it is that loss of clear functionality that is the 'curse' of the flat design.
...
The big issue with what Windows 8 introduced was the streamlining, removal of features and depth

Flat design itself doesn't cause a loss of functionality or features. The key, as always, is making sure functions are logically organised and presented to the user - make sure commonly used functions more accessible, use menus/icons/labels that make sense, etc. The reverse is also true: surfacing every single option at once is similarly bad design. Flat design must respect UX principles just like any other - any design that makes it more difficult for the end user is a bad design.

As i mentioned the problem is that Flat Design as it has been rolled out on masse across the technology GUI sector HAS resulted in mostly loss of function. As i also mentioned this seems to stem from the fact that Windows 8 (as the first global rollout of Flat Design) was 'mobile' focused, and everything since has followed that same trend. So it has become that Flat Design is Mobile Design, even in non mobile environments. That has led to loss of functionality and i've experienced it first hand from my OS (Windows 8 and 10 vs previous versions) to applications (from Secunia PSI to Malwarebytes, ALL apps that have gone Flat Design (and most now have) are also less detailed and less functional due to that) to forum software (the aforementioned Discourse and Discord software vs traditional phpBB based forums etc).

Everywhere you look in the current Flat Design space, you will find simplification, streamlining and loss of functionality due to Flat Designs seeming focus being on mobile phone usage. It 100% is the biggest curse of Flat Design today.

Now as i also said it did not have to be this way, I could happily turn my Windows 7 OS system 'Flat' and not lose any functionality, but that is not what Flat Design is actually about, it's about a shift from Windows 8 that put the focus on mobile and simplification, and ALL Flat design has followed that pattern, despite Windows 8 GUI being the least popular to date (based on overall popularity of Windows 8 vs other MS OS).

[cliffcoggin]

namely the general tendency across the whole computer world for the trend to flat GUI. I am glad to see that this has been recognised by the Mint developers, and as a result some text has been given increased contrast in one the Mint 19 versions.

I don't understand this argument. What has contrast got to do with the trend for flat design? The contrast in the Mint-Y theme was simply bad, in particular with old GTK2 apps since those had been a little overlooked when refreshing the theme (it was my continued use of the Pidgin messenger that uncovered that particular shortcoming ).

PS. I don't see anyone getting excited or worked up over this matter. The arguments seem calm and measured to me.

Maybe not my best choice of words, but what I meant was that it was a huge post with a "plea" to the devs not to follow the trend when the devs are already providing the option of a non-flat theme, so I guess really don't understand the point being made here other than expressing your preference (which would be perfectly fine, of course).

At least I hope you're not asking to have the flat theme (Mint-Y) removed and only the non-flat theme (Mint-X) be kept, because that would be silly. Flat themes are ubiquitous because they are popular. if you removed the flat variant of the Mint theme then you'd get lots of complaints from the other end of the opinion spectrum....

Well perhaps we have different ideas of what constitutes flat design. The Mint X themes you showed earlier all display the elements that I consider poor aspects of flat design, namely insipid colours, indistinct borders, & low contrast controls, which together conspire to present a vague and hard to read interface. And no of course I am not suggesting they should be removed from Mint, however I would like to see viable non-flat themes available that were as well thought out and integrated as the flat ones. The existing non-flat alternatives, as I have mentioned elsewhere, have either involved compromises to icons/controls/borders or even complete incompatibility with some applications.

Incidentally I do question the popularity of flat themes among most users as opposed to developers and enthusiasts. After all, if the only food one given is bread, then bread is what one will eat, but that doesn't necessarily make it popular.

[gm10]

Well perhaps we have different ideas of what constitutes flat design.

I'll go with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_design:

Flat design is a style of interface design emphasizing minimum use of stylistic elements that give the illusion of three dimensions (such as the use of drop shadows, gradients or textures)[1] and is focused on a minimalist use of simple elements, typography and flat colors.[2] Designers may prefer flat design because it allows interface designs to be more streamlined and efficient. It is easier to quickly convey information while still looking visually appealing and approachable.[3] Additionally, it makes it easier to design an interface that is responsive to changes in browser size across different devices. With minimal design elements, websites are able to load faster and resize easily, and still look sharp on high-definition screens.[1]

Low contrast is bad no matter the design style.

The Mint X themes you showed earlier all display the elements that I consider poor aspects of flat design, namely insipid colours, indistinct borders, & low contrast controls, which together conspire to present a vague and hard to read interface.

Hmm, I wonder how you'd classify my own theme then, for it is certainly a flat theme by the general definition but has a high contrast black/white/red colour scheme yet not particularly contrasted, flat controls:

Work in progress btw, I need to make the inactive elements darker.

[Moem]

Well perhaps we have different ideas of what constitutes flat design. The Mint X themes you showed earlier all display the elements that I consider poor aspects of flat design, namely insipid colours, indistinct borders, & low contrast controls, which together conspire to present a vague and hard to read interface.

Right, but that doesn't make them flat. There are gradients and shadows, making it a non-flat theme.
Words have meanings and 'flat design' doesn't mean what you are describing here.

[Portreve]

I don't know what it was called, but I strongly prefer the UI design Google used with Android 4.x and earlier. The only other UI I like (for dedicated touch screen devices like tablets and smartphones is Apple's iOS prior to whenever they switched to their own flat UI.

When I first saw the mock-ups for Android Material Design, i assumed the colors were dummy (i.e. mock-up) ones. I never expected them to actually do what they did.

[Moem]

I don't know what it was called, but I strongly prefer the UI design Google used with Android 4.x and earlier.

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