What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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Crippled

Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Crippled » Tue May 28, 2019 12:56 pm

Moem wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 12:33 pm
Crippled wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:21 am
It's easy for you because you know the command line
I really don't. I couldn't command line myself out of a wet paper bag if my life depended on it.
Crippled wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:21 am
Just because someone is giving free support is not an excuse to be rude and attack them.
I agree completely! :D

I'm glad to hear that you can copy&paste commands and their output. That's all that's expected of you in this forum.
Some of us here use the command line, some do not; I'm among the latter group and no one has ever given me grief for it. But it's good to realise how useful and versatile a tool it is, even if you don't know any commands yourself.
Excellent. I am happy to see that you are type 2. :) Sorry if I offended you earlier.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Tue May 28, 2019 11:03 pm

Please remember that, as an online community, where one does not know the other from a bar of soap, that nuances like body language do not give the true meaning to what is being typed. We also do not know "your" history or experience if you are a newbie here, so, often, we waste our time, and yours, explaining stuff that you already know. Often, too, we get the "I know it all" brigade who, in reality, know nothing, so spoon feeding (which can be interpreted as "superiority") is also common. I've seen this on just about every forum that I inhabit. All that the members are really trying to do is share their love for their particular "sport", be it computers, football or stamp collecting. None of us are in the habit of sending "noobs back to windows", quite the opposite.

The admin of one of the largest forums that I do visit, is, quite obnoxious, however, the members are friendly and helpful and there resides a great knowledge base there, so I put up with his attitude, for the sake of what I can learn, and contribute. Other fora, I have abandoned for the attitude of a few, because there are many other resources that can offer similar. If you don't like it, you can leave, no one is compelling you to stay.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Wed May 29, 2019 6:01 pm

lsemmens wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:03 pm
Please remember that, as an online community, where one does not know the other from a bar of soap, that nuances like body language do not give the true meaning to what is being typed. We also do not know "your" history or experience if you are a newbie here, so, often, we waste our time, and yours, explaining stuff that you already know. Often, too, we get the "I know it all" brigade who, in reality, know nothing, so spoon feeding (which can be interpreted as "superiority") is also common.
I agree 100% with this & the rest of your post. Also what Moem and others said. :)

I might be guilty of appearing to be "rude" as you put it, Crippled, with some of my responses. I do try to explain the reasons & procedures though, for the most part. Certainly don't intend to be anything other than helpful, though, in cases where I feel confident enough to offer assistance. The whole experience can be rather rewarding. :) Plus, as a KDE user without currently having a working Cinnamon or MATÉ system, being able to guide someone through GUI options isn't usually practical in my case. My Xfce installs are currently on "standby", too. Must get that sorted! This message is coming from a Manjaro system (Arch-based) but a lot of commands are common between systems.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Thu May 30, 2019 6:36 am

lsemmens wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:03 pm
Please remember that, as an online community, where one does not know the other from a bar of soap, that nuances like body language do not give the true meaning to what is being typed. We also do not know "your" history or experience if you are a newbie here, so, often, we waste our time, and yours, explaining stuff that you already know. Often, too, we get the "I know it all" brigade who, in reality, know nothing, so spoon feeding (which can be interpreted as "superiority") is also common. I've seen this on just about every forum that I inhabit. All that the members are really trying to do is share their love for their particular "sport", be it computers, football or stamp collecting. None of us are in the habit of sending "noobs back to windows", quite the opposite.

The admin of one of the largest forums that I do visit, is, quite obnoxious, however, the members are friendly and helpful and there resides a great knowledge base there, so I put up with his attitude, for the sake of what I can learn, and contribute. Other fora, I have abandoned for the attitude of a few, because there are many other resources that can offer similar. If you don't like it, you can leave, no one is compelling you to stay.
Agreed completely.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:28 pm

I find that there is still out there in Linux Land a very vocal group (a minority, I hope), that takes me back to the bad old days of Linux. All you hear from them is stuff like: "If you don't use "X" distro, use command line like a pro, don't use "MY" preferred distro, the you are a LUSER!!!, and I will go all over the net boasting that all other distros except "MY" favorite one are for script kiddies, and no better than Microsoft because they are too easy". Holy Macaroni Batman! I thought we were beyond this "RTFM" "VI(M) vs EMACS, Apt vs RPM, CLI vs GUI" nonsense. WE, and I mean WE as a community have driven off many people who were ready to dip their feet into the Linux pond by not shutting down the screamers before they could turn off a potential master user of LInux. USE THE DARN FLAVOR OF LINUX YOU WANT, AND ENJOY IT!!! Sorry, I am home, tired, and short tempered from work, rant over.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by murray » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:34 pm

One thing I think a lot of people that are moving from Windows to Linux find difficult is file permissions. In Windows you can pretty much edit any file you like (Windows does try to protect some system files/directories, but these aren't usually anything that someone would want to change and so most users don't encounter them) but in Linux you have to think about who owns that file before you try to do anything with it.

Of course this makes perfect sense in Linux, which started out as a multi-user OS whereas Windows grew out of DOS which of course was single user. Along the way Windows morphed into a multi-user OS but many users set themselves up as administrators and so can access all files without having to think about file permissions. File permissions in Linux is a great thing, it's what helps to make it hard for a virus to get a foot-hold in a Linux system, but many users find them confusing.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:52 pm

murray wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:34 pm
Along the way Windows morphed into a multi-user OS but many users set themselves up as administrators and so can access all files without having to think about file permissions.
The "funny" (more like "sad") part about this is that Microsoft tried to mitigate this by lowering the administrator account's permissions, administrators do no longer have access to files and folders owned by certain system accounts (you can still take ownership though).

The advantage of this is that the average "admin" user on Windows cannot break everything, whereas on Linux you're still god if you're root, with all the risks that involves.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by ajgringo619 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:26 pm

MurphCID wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:28 pm
I find that there is still out there in Linux Land a very vocal group (a minority, I hope), that takes me back to the bad old days of Linux. All you hear from them is stuff like: "If you don't use "X" distro, use command line like a pro, don't use "MY" preferred distro, the you are a LUSER!!!, and I will go all over the net boasting that all other distros except "MY" favorite one are for script kiddies, and no better than Microsoft because they are too easy". Holy Macaroni Batman! I thought we were beyond this "RTFM" "VI(M) vs EMACS, Apt vs RPM, CLI vs GUI" nonsense. WE, and I mean WE as a community have driven off many people who were ready to dip their feet into the Linux pond by not shutting down the screamers before they could turn off a potential master user of LInux. USE THE DARN FLAVOR OF LINUX YOU WANT, AND ENJOY IT!!! Sorry, I am home, tired, and short tempered from work, rant over.
Sad, but true. It really hasn't gotten any better since Windows 2000 first came out (what I consider MS's first real attempt to enter the server market); the Solaris/AIX people I worked with thought they were royalty. I feel that the Linux community has blown their chance to truly embrace new users. Too many posts I see about switching from Windows to Linux almost make the user feel like he/she has gone through Confession - that's just wrong.

And you stated above, the Linux vs. Linux posts are complete garbage. Who gives a crap how hard it is to setup? Does anyone buy a car completely disassembled, only to have the "experience" of putting it together?
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:40 pm

murray wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:34 pm
One thing I think a lot of people that are moving from Windows to Linux find difficult is file permissions. In Windows you can pretty much edit any file you like (Windows does try to protect some system files/directories, but these aren't usually anything that someone would want to change and so most users don't encounter them) but in Linux you have to think about who owns that file before you try to do anything with it.

Of course this makes perfect sense in Linux, which started out as a multi-user OS whereas Windows grew out of DOS which of course was single user. Along the way Windows morphed into a multi-user OS but many users set themselves up as administrators and so can access all files without having to think about file permissions. File permissions in Linux is a great thing, it's what helps to make it hard for a virus to get a foot-hold in a Linux system, but many users find them confusing.
Great point.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Inundated » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:45 am

Another example of the topic: Getting my Canon PIXMA TR7520 printer/scanner working to scan.

Printing? No problem. It even picks up the printer on my home network and works with no issues. No configuration required.

Scanning, however, is another story.

The scanimage command (from the terminal no less) doesn't find the scanner side of the same printer that is automatically picked up on the network.

I went here to download the driver Canon has for Linux (in ScanGearMP):

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/port ... _downloads

Uh, OK, I have to look up how to unpack a tar file...

I did a lot of digging into SANE, which even says it supports the scanner.

Then, I went to the documentation for SANE.

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Scanner-HOWTO/index.html

My eyes are glazing over at this point. I am not at all adverse to copy/pasting lines into the terminal as instructed, but this one got too deep in the woods for me.

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Scanner-HOWTO/san ... ONFIG-SANE

For one, it appears SANE will work over the network if you install some sort of daemon on the host machine, and the host in this case runs Windows 7.

And I gave up. (I have approached this issue in another thread, and haven't tackled it yet...this is not a request for help, just an example. :D)

My solution? Install Canon's Android app, and that works fine.

I could continue down the path above, and with help, I might be able to get this to work. I also might have better results plugging directly into the Canon via USB, and now that I have a fully working and configured laptop, I might still even try that.

But for now, the Path Of Least Resistance was just getting the Android app and calling it a day.

One other problem I had earlier is gone with my new phone. I could not access the file system of the phone (Moto E5 Play) via Linux Mint, likely some sort of configuration setting on the phone...though trying back and forth, I couldn't get that going. My new phone (Moto X4) works without issue.

Does any of this "drive me back to Windows"? Hell no! I am a thrilled Linux Mint user. Aside from these issues, the Linux Mint system has been perfect for me, and runs all day, every day without a single problem.

On this new laptop, it dual boots with the included Windows 7, and I've been into Windows 7 only a couple of times since I got it. When the Windows 7 drop-dead support date arrives at the start of 2020, I will quite possibly reclaim that disk space...I bought this (used) laptop to run Linux.

But for others more deeply rooted in the Windows universe...issues like this could drive them away.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:13 pm

gm10 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:52 pm
The "funny" (more like "sad") part about this is that Microsoft tried to mitigate this by lowering the administrator account's permissions, administrators do no longer have access to files and folders owned by certain system accounts (you can still take ownership though).
This reminded me of the "God Mode" utility (or whatever it was) one could use in Windows (probably xp, but may have been Win7). People always seem to find workarounds for these sort of restrictions. :roll:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:24 am

BG405 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:13 pm
gm10 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:52 pm
The "funny" (more like "sad") part about this is that Microsoft tried to mitigate this by lowering the administrator account's permissions, administrators do no longer have access to files and folders owned by certain system accounts (you can still take ownership though).
This reminded me of the "God Mode" utility (or whatever it was) one could use in Windows (probably xp, but may have been Win7). People always seem to find workarounds for these sort of restrictions. :roll:
I remember "God Mode", I think you can still use it in Winders 10. I'll have to look it up on the Webz.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by hcentaur13 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:32 am

Itg is only the personel taste - and money as some gets payed to propagate to use windows.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:29 am

Yep "God Mode" is still available for Winders 10. https://www.howtogeek.com/402458/enable ... indows-10/ It gives you no more control over the deeper functions of Windows than what you can usually do with start menu.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Swampthing » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:41 pm

I havent read all the comments.
I made it to page 6.
Been a n00b myself and I can only speak for myself.
There are much to learn:
1) The filesystem, its a whole different beast to me and others too probably.
2) Terminal. Well, I started with DOS 6.0(or 6.22, not really sure), so I understand the concept of using commands. Now I just need to learn some new and understand how they work
3) The apps and programs available for Linux are not what us n00bs are accustomed to, they have funky/weird names or icons or both. Fonts are a bit different. Everything has this homebrew/DIY/moonshine feel to it.

It's a whole different world/enviroment! It's refreshing to me at least. And I'm not scared away by it, a bit intimidated but also intrigued.
I'm used to Windows and MacOS, where everything is more polished and streamlined.
It's like moving from a big city to the wild west, some like it and some don't.
And it takes time and effort to how to learn how use Linux, but the same goes for Windows as well.

Also, many ppl cant see how Linux can be used in companies, simply because they don't know much about what programs to use. I think its a deal breaker for alot of ppl and companies.

I chose Linux because of Microsofts data collecting. I also deleted all the Google apps from my phone for the same reason. I don't have anything to hide, I just like my privacy. It's the same as I have a completely normal and ordinary body, but doesn't mean I'd walk naked down the main street. I'd rather have clothes on and be anonymous.

So what sends the n00bs away?
Points 1,2 and 3.
And probably a few more issues like compatibility issues, difficult troubleshooting and so on.
Having a few helping hands, like in this forum helps a lot though.

A few thoughts from a n00b.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:06 pm

Swampthing wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:41 pm
I chose Linux because of Microsofts data collecting. I also deleted all the Google apps from my phone for the same reason. I don't have anything to hide, I just like my privacy.
You and me both, brother or sister! I like the way you think.
You'll do fine with Linux Mint, I'm sure. You've got the right mindset: you are curious. Always a good start!
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:56 pm

Moem wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:06 pm
Swampthing wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:41 pm
I chose Linux because of Microsofts data collecting. I also deleted all the Google apps from my phone for the same reason. I don't have anything to hide, I just like my privacy.
You and me both, brother or sister! I like the way you think.
You'll do fine with Linux Mint, I'm sure. You've got the right mindset: you are curious. Always a good start!
I agree on the privacy issue as well. That is why I added No Script to Chromium, I have it on Firefox as well.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:44 pm

I am learning more on terminal commands, I did something today, and was really impressed how fast and easy it was. I used terminal to upgrade, update, and auto remove old kernels from my HP Spectre x360 machine. Really nice. I am becoming a Linux convert! I might actually try to do something else RSN. :)

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by kamie » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:15 pm

What's send noobs back to windows? Not sure I can answer that, as I have no desire to ever go back period. Windows lost me a month ago. Please forgive my French.................but as far as I'm concerned, widows can take there mandatory spy ware bloat ware updates and shove them up there ass. I bought this computer................I paid for it, it belongs to me, MS didn't see it that way. They felt I was "leasing" there spyware so they had control over my computer. FU MS.

Linux hasn't been super easy to learn, and I didn't do the install, long story read my howdy in introductions, if you are curious. I might have been better off had I done it, could have learned more.
Swampthing, made some great points in the post.

The main reason I'll never "run" jog' "walk" back to windows for any reason is this forum. If I'm confused, everyone helps. If I don't understand something, everyone helps, if the smallest thing happens, everyone helps. This is the nicest place I've ever found for help on computer issues.

The thing I love about Linux, beside the support, is the learning. Almost everyday, I fell like I've learned something, and I'm finding answers a lot more on my own with out having to ask question here.

My biggest complaint at first and still, was and is the terminology but it is starting to make more since day by day.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Eggnog » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:05 pm

I've often thought what sends most new linux users back to Windows is that linux isn't Windows. You can't even really use the "but muh gamez' excuse any longer. Maybe they're fed up with Windows 10, but what they want is linux that's just like Windows. I've seen it more times that I care to think about. With something like Mint, they really don't have to set anything up, really. But it isn't Windows, ya know.

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