Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK
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Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

Hi All.

I know that some of you know Latin and I wondered if anybody could have a go at translating a bit of Medieval Latin for me.

"dicit quod ipse nunquam fuit consentiens, auxilians, seu procurans, ad mortem suam, nec unquam scivit de morte sua usque in presenti Parliamento".

It's to do with a History project I'm playing with and have four translations of it, but they're all done by British Historians. I just wondered if having a non-Historian translation could possibly throw a new light on it.

Thanks if you can help.

Jon

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absque fenestris
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

he says that he would never have consented to help, or who, procuring, arrived at his death, by his death, and I was never so voted, that as far as in the present of the Parliament...
he says that he never was consenting, auxilians, or procurans, to his own death, nor will I ever knew of his death until the present parliament for the...
Medieval Latin is not classic Latin... Maybe the statement makes sense to you, it seems a bit twisted to me.

Death of Edward II in Berkeley Castle?
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

absque fenestris wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:13 pm
he says that he would never have consented to help, or who, procuring, arrived at his death, by his death, and I was never so voted, that as far as in the present of the Parliament...
he says that he never was consenting, auxilians, or procurans, to his own death, nor will I ever knew of his death until the present parliament for the...
Medieval Latin is not classic Latin... Maybe the statement makes sense to you, it seems a bit twisted to me.

Death of Edward II in Berkeley Castle?
Hi absque fenestris

Thanks for your work. In context, the translations I already have, do make some sense, but I was hoping that a translation by someone who doesn't have 'English as their first language' could add something. As you say "Medieval Latin is not classic Latin", and it is a bit 'twisted', and then certain Historians twist it even further in order to make a point.

Death of Edward II in Berkeley Castle? Spot on.

Thanks again, Jon

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absque fenestris
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Hi Jon

Is the text in question by Jean Froissart? Could you send a longer excerpt?


Two attempts in German translation. Parliamento could mean a meeting, a debate or just the parliament.
Er sagt, dass er nie zugestimmt hat, helfend oder bevollmächtigt, seinem Tode - und auch nie von seinem Tode wusste, bis zur jetzigen Besprechung.

Er sagt, dass er seinem Tode nie zugestimmt hat, helfend oder bevollmächtigt, und auch nie von seinem Tode wusste, bis zur jetzigen Besprechung.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

Hi absque fenestris.

Edward II died on 21st Sept 1327, at Berkeley castle under the 'care' of Thomas Berkekey and John Matravers, supposedly, from natural causes. But in late 1330 Matravers and Berkeley were summoned to Parliament. Matravers ran away but Berkeley went and it was announced that Edward II had been murdered and Berkeley was asked "how can he excuse himself, but that he should be answerable for the death of the king", Berkeley replied "qualiter se velit de morte ipsius regis acquietare, dicit quod ipse nunquam fuit consentiens, auxilians, seu procurans, ad mortem suam, nec unquam scivit de morte sua usque in presenti Parliamento isto".

The Latin comes from the Parliamentary Rolls. The official record of our fledgling Parliament.

"how can he excuse himself, but that he should be answerable for the death of the king". That's a translation of the medieval Latin - but not by me!

Edward III sent Berkeley off to be tried and he was found not guilty of murder, because he was ill and not there when it happened! He was found guilty for appointing William D'Ockley and Thomas Gurney to look after Edward II while he was ill, and they were found guilty of the murder. It's unknown what happened to D'Ockley, but Gurney joined up with Matravers in Spain.

Froissart became involved later, and said ... After the King had arrived at Berkeley, he did not have very long. And how should he have lived, when things were as I will tell you? For I, Jean Froissart, author of this chronicle, was at Berkeley Castle in September 1366 in the company of Edward Lord Despenser, the grandson of that Hugh Despenser of whom I will say more in a moment. We spent three days either in the castle or in amusements in the neighbourhood. In order to confirm my chronicle, I inquired about that king, asking what had become of him. An old squire told me that in the same year in which he was taken there he died, for they shortened his life for him. So ended that King of England and we shall speak no more of him.

And, no, I didn't translate that either.

Cheers, Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Hi Jon
Thank you for your precise explanations. Seen in this way, England has always cultivated a very rustic way of dealing with kings and queens...
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RIGHT, I've stopped rolling around on the floor laughing heartily.
absque fenestris wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:58 pm
... England has always cultivated a very rustic way of dealing with kings and queens...
Didn't we!

You also said "Two attempts in German translation. Parliamento could mean a meeting, a debate or just the parliament".

We tend to say that Parliament is a corruption of a French phrase, that I've forgotten, but it's based on 'Parle' - acute e - and really meant a 'talking shop', a 'meeting' or a 'place of debate'. Nice when languages agree.

Thanks, Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by Portreve »

Looking back, I think it would have been nice to learn Latin in school, simply because it is the source for so much that is the English language we know today, either directly or indirectly.

However, when I was in school, the only languages they taught were Spanish, French, and German (which also are points of origination for English) but since I wasn't college-bound at the time, I never studied any of them¹.

It's interesting to see the above translations of that Latin passage. As with German but also higher forms of English prose, I love how somewhat circuitous the sentence structure is.

¹ Yes, the old saw is true: What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual. What do you call someone who speaks more than two languages? Multilingual. What do you call someone who only speaks one language? American.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

Portreve, HOW DARE YOU? I AM OFFENDED AND AM GOING TO CORRECT YOU.
Portreve wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:55 am
What do you call someone who only speaks one language? ENGLISH.
Another of our great traditions, that we've shared with parts of the world!

You also said "I love how somewhat circuitous the sentence structure is."

Yeah, agreed, but wouldn't it be easier if English wasn't so blinkin' flexible!

Returning to 1330, Thomas Berkeley was summoned to Edward III's first Parliament, where it was announced that Edward II had been murdered back in 1327. Berkeley was asked "how can he excuse himself, but that he should be answerable for the death of the king", Berkeley replied that "he was never in agreement to his death, either by lending help or by direct involvement, and he never knew about his death until this present parliament."

By modern standards that's 'clumsy' Ingrish, but that's one of the central points of the argument that Edward II didn't die, but was whisked away to Corfe castle, then Ireland, then back to England, then France, then Germany, then Italy, back to Germany - where he met his son (Edward III), then back to Italy, where he died.

Comments please.

Thanks again to absque fenestris, as your multi-lingual translations show how tricky this all is.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by Portreve »

I don't know if it is a factor in translation per se, but one of the problems with English, historically, is there is no one defined standard English, and there never has been, although I would argue it's gotten drastically better in the last couple hundred years.

I'm American, and I do like what my culture has done to English (in terms of standardizing spelling) and following a more logic/math path with things like double negatives. That said, I'm not in love with the way it typically gets used. It's very flat and boring and generic. Contemporary British usage is, by comparison, a lot more colorful and vibrant, which whether I'm listening or reading, makes everything significantly more pleasurable.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

That said, I'm not in love with the way it typically gets used. It's very flat and boring and generic.
It's not just the language: in graphics, illustrations, symbols, architecture and product design you can see this fairly flat, rather boring uniform design worldwide.
I'm always happy when I get my hands on something really "baroque", e.g. a thick, heavy, large-format book, a Thonet chair, a turntable with an impressive tonearm or my two-eyed Rollei again and again.

That probably says something about my year.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by all41 »

Interesting thread happening here. Started out with medieval latin has now gravitated to English. I liked the history, and learned a new word-circuitous (thanks Portreve) I have spent my life in electronics technology and had not come across that variation. All languages are constantly evolving though--except perhaps Latin.
a turntable with an impressive tonearm
Now were speaking the same language--tell me more

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Brachium quod facit pulchra voce cum acus... so Edward III can imagine something. A computer would be more difficult to describe.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by all41 »

I used to have thorens TD160 (?)
Not in that class at all--
but loved the Thorens with stock arm and V15 IV with elliptical back in the day.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Funny story: This is a Thorens 166 MK II. I found it in a thrift store for $ 5. Original tonearm, needle out. A friend, who worked on the development of a music amplifier in a company, saw the update lying around in the original packaging in the storage room:
The straight, extra-light titanium tonearm. Asked - take it.
However, the new sound cell then cost quite a bit... my wife never found out how much.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

Hi Jon
... ...that Edward II didn't die, but was whisked away to Corfe castle, then Ireland, then back to England, then France, then Germany, then Italy, back to Germany - where he met his son (Edward III), then back to Italy, where he died.
Can you give me some web links or other hints about this pretty fantastic story?

Others watch TV, I like reading history - in Montségur e.g. I even understand history in French ...
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by RollyShed »

absque fenestris wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:29 am
Hi Jon
... ...that Edward II didn't die, but was whisked away to Corfe castle, then Ireland, then back to England, then France, then Germany, then Italy, back to Germany - where he met his son (Edward III), then back to Italy, where he died.
Can you give me some web links or other hints about this pretty fantastic story?
Did he travel by Easyjet or BOAC? Hmm..., maybe a good question?

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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by Portreve »

all41 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:09 pm
Interesting thread happening here. Started out with medieval latin has now gravitated to English. I liked the history, and learned a new word-circuitous (thanks Portreve) I have spent my life in electronics technology and had not come across that variation. All languages are constantly evolving though--except perhaps Latin.
Thank you for the compliment!

I remember listening to a discussion which made the following point about Latin. Anyone here who is knowledgeable, please feel free to chime in and agree or disagree. The point was made that Latin has been the choice of language for different disciplines because the terms and phases used (or that are able to be used) are fixed and unchanging in their meaning, which means people from different backgrounds and/or different generations can consistently understand what was intended by the writer.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by absque fenestris »

I think even the experts hit their heads there, but due to the lack of sound recording, we don't even know whether the "c" in Caesar is pronounced more like "ts" in tsunami or rather than "k" like kangaroo.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by dorsetUK »

RollyShed wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:20 am
[b]absque fenestris[/b] wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:29 am
Hi Jon
... ...that Edward II didn't die, but was whisked away to Corfe castle, then Ireland, then back to England, then France, then Germany, then Italy, back to Germany - where he met his son (Edward III), then back to Italy, where he died.
Can you give me some web links or other hints about this pretty fantastic story?
Did he travel by Easyjet or BOAC? Hmm..., maybe a good question?
Hi RollyShed, in my mind, a very good question.

Hi absque fenestris, yep, links coming up, and there are so many of them!
Portreve wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:11 am
I remember listening to a discussion which made the following point about Latin. Anyone here who is knowledgeable, please feel free to chime in and agree or disagree. The point was made that Latin has been the choice of language for different disciplines because the terms and phases used (or that are able to be used) are fixed and unchanging in their meaning, which means people from different backgrounds and/or different generations can consistently understand what was intended by the writer.
Hi Portreve I'm certainly no expert, but have been told pretty much the same. Going back to 11th Century England and legal records were done in Latin and, particularly after a certain incident in 1066, many kings, lords, earls etc had estates on both side of the channel, so a 'lingua franca' was needed.

Now to spend a wet and windy Sunday afternoon cutting a huge list of links, and my waffle, down to a manageable size.

Jon

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