Medieval Latin.

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CaptainKirksChair
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Re: Medieval Latin.

Post by CaptainKirksChair »

If you want a good fictional read about that time period, read Michael Crichton's Timeline. As with Crichton's other books, it is a good blend of fiction, science, and action. I personally think it's one of his best.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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CaptainKirksChair wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:04 am
If you want a good fictional read about that time period, read Michael Crichton's Timeline. As with Crichton's other books, it is a good blend of fiction, science, and action. I personally think it's one of his best.
Hi CaptainKirksChair

That looks intersting, I'll add it to my 'to be read' list. Shame the film 'bombed'.

Hi af
absque fenestris wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:52 pm
Hi Jon

Mr. Bosons doesn't show up, but Hecz seems to be Mr. Stertz
The White Company first organized itself under the leadership of a German knight, Albert Stertz, who spoke Italian and had served in Italy before... ...
Where I am currently looking for more documents is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1315–1317
A number of documented incidents show the extent of the famine. Edward II of England stopped at St Albans on 10 August 1315 and had difficulty finding bread for himself and his entourage; it was a rare occasion in which the King of England was unable to eat.
...
For the next several decades, after the famine, Europe took on a tougher and more violent edge; it became an even less amicable place than during the twelfth and the thirteenth centuries. This could be seen across all segments of society, perhaps most strikingly in the way warfare was conducted in the fourteenth century during the Hundred Years' War, when chivalry ended, as opposed to the twelfth and the thirteenth centuries when nobles were more likely to die by accident in tournament games than on the field of battle.

The famine also undermined confidence in medieval governments for their failure to deal with its resulting crises.
'Hecz seems to be Mr. Stertz' - interesting.

The 'famine'. Poor sods.

A bit of research on the poorly named ‘Little Ice Age’. ‘Wet n Windy Age’ seems to be a better description. https://researchrepository.ucd.ie/handle/10197/2649

Kathryn Warner has a vivid post on some of it’s effects.
https://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/20 ... -1317.html

I’d like to welcome our Chinese and New Zealand communities as they take their part in European history, as in 1315 chroniclers in China, Sweden and England recorded that there were “blood red skies”, which were interpreted – in Europe - as God being angry with us. It’s much more likely that the cause was Mount Tarawera going BANG.

Also known as the ‘Kaharoa eruption’ of 1314 or 15. https://teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/6826/kaharoa-ash

I’d love to know how our Chinese cousins interpreted the “blood red skies”.

In June 1314 the English were absolutely humiliated by the Scots at Bannockburn.

Mind you, perhaps ‘God’ was angry, as Europe saw a lunar eclipse in October ‘16, and parts
of France were rocked by earthquakes in ‘16 and ‘17.

NEXT, came the Great Cattle Plague of 1319, which I think was an English problem – but am not sure. Loads of facts and figures http://eh.net/eha/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Slavin.pdf

The number of people who died in Europe, or N Europe, or just England, is safely put at 5%, but some historians would go to 10%, and some as far as 15%. Suffice to say it was a bloody awful time to be alive.

If that wasn’t enough, in 1321 Edward II had a bit of family-trouble with his father-in-law, the king of France, and had to send an army to Gascony. ‘Back home’ many of the English and Welsh earls, barons and knights were thoroughly fed-up with Edward II and his ‘advisors’, the Despensers, so started what’s generally known as the ‘Despenser Wars’, which to me, was as uncivil as a Civil-War could be. However, Edward II, long known for starting wars and then losing them, suddenly got things right and smashed the rebellious at Boroughbridge in 1322, and then got vengeful, which was not what kings were meant to do. Many ‘rebels’ were executed, many thrown into prison and some ‘fled abroad’.

All of that, preparing things for the eventual squabble that led to Edward II’s deposition, in 1326. And then Edward III learning how to win battles, by letting other people fight his wars.

Phew. Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi Jon

It strikes me how poorly the time around 1300 is documented for the Alpine region. For example, the traffic over the Gotthard Pass, compared to the Brenner Pass, the Little St. Bernhard Pass or the Mont Cenis. Fees were raised and administered by imperial administrators, but practically nothing is known about the actual business operations (guides and their train and pack animals, quantities and times of transport, pioneers, snow clearers, catering...).

About the time of 1315, things like: miserable summer, strange sky, bad harvests, hunger or drastic reduction in livestock: nothing.

Nothing but a collection of myths and legends, of course politically corrected.


And as always, thanks for the links. af
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:16 am
Sweden and England recorded that there were “blood red skies”, which were interpreted – in Europe - as God being angry with us. It’s much more likely that the cause was Mount Tarawera going BANG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tarawera
Mount Tarawera erupted around 1315 in the Kaharoa eruption. The ash thrown from this event may have affected temperatures around the globe and precipitated the Great Famine of 1315–17 in Europe.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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absque fenestris wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:57 pm
Hi Jon

It strikes me how poorly the time around 1300 is documented for the Alpine region. For example, the traffic over the Gotthard Pass, compared to the Brenner Pass, the Little St. Bernhard Pass or the Mont Cenis. Fees were raised and administered by imperial administrators, but practically nothing is known about the actual business operations (guides and their train and pack animals, quantities and times of transport, pioneers, snow clearers, catering...).

About the time of 1315, things like: miserable summer, strange sky, bad harvests, hunger or drastic reduction in livestock: nothing.

Nothing but a collection of myths and legends, of course politically corrected.

And as always, thanks for the links. af
Hi af,

That must be really frustrating for you. I can sympathise as my 'first love', historically speaking, is the Palaeolithic age. But as a private individual, who can't afford to spend £100's on books and membership fees to specialised groups, I had to concentrate on something that I could access, pretty much freely, ie, England 1066 to 1400. We're incredibly lucky as Government record eg, the Fine, Close and Patent rolls, mainly survived and are mainly free, via www.archive.org.

We're doubly lucky as 'Chronicles' still exist going back to the 1200's, and although not entirely reliable, as they were often sponsored by a particular Earl or Abbey etc, and thus political, they still provide ideas and issues that escaped the official record.

One thing that did occur to me, is that we also have a lot of 'cartularies'. Basically records kept by Abbeys and Priories etc - 'manorial' records. I would guess that your churches kept such records, but are they still extant?

Another thought is that cartularies and manorial records for Dorset, before c1400 are skant - putting it mildly - but the Earl of Gloucester had a few manors in Dorset and his records have added to Dorsets history - which then made me think about Savoy.

Henry III, reigned 1216-'72, married Elanor of Provence, who had huge links to Savoy. To keep Elanor happy Henry allowed a lot of her relatives over to England in order to run the country. Then he invited his relatives over to England - the Lusignans - to also run the country and wanted to run Sicily. This annoyed some of the English, and notably the Frenchman, Simon de Montfort, who rebelled in order to remove this alien influence and make England, English - oh dear! https://finerollshenry3.org.uk/redist/p ... 2-2012.pdf

I was wondering if looking at the lands that surrounded Switzerland, and the churches that were in or near to you could enhance to your story. It also seems to be established that pilgrimages went from England, through France, up into Switzerland and then Rome - maybe on to 'the Holy lands'. Via Francigena

This bunch, just appeared https://www.savoydelegation-usa.org/sav ... land.html# but, apart from that page, I haven't read them yet.

Damn - your chronicles don't seem to start until too late https://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/list/ ... chronicles but I think I'd fire off an email to them - if there is anything, they may know it, or know someone who does.

Good luck, Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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RollyShed wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:02 pm
dorsetUK wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:16 am
Sweden and England recorded that there were “blood red skies”, which were interpreted – in Europe - as God being angry with us. It’s much more likely that the cause was Mount Tarawera going BANG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tarawera
Mount Tarawera erupted around 1315 in the Kaharoa eruption. The ash thrown from this event may have affected temperatures around the globe and precipitated the Great Famine of 1315–17 in Europe.
Cheers RollyShed - I love a bit of international co-operation :lol:

Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:18 pm
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:02 pm
Mount Tarawera erupted around 1315 in the Kaharoa eruption. The ash thrown from this event may have affected temperatures around the globe and precipitated the Great Famine of 1315–17 in Europe.
Cheers RollyShed - I love a bit of international co-operation :lol:
Jon.
Maybe a wee bit off the thread but as Mt Tarawera is in New Zealand (as dorsetUK noticed), those that might be called "the locals", Māori, originated from eastern Polynesia and arrived in New Zealand in several waves of waka (canoe) voyages somewhere between 1320 and 1350 (radiocarbon dating) and and appear to have got here just after the eruption. Note that some oral histories say earlier or as early as 800.

Now back to medieval Europe......

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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RollyShed wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:51 am
Maybe a wee bit off the thread but as Mt Tarawera is in New Zealand (as dorsetUK noticed), those that might be called "the locals", Māori, originated from eastern Polynesia and arrived in New Zealand in several waves of waka (canoe) voyages somewhere between 1320 and 1350 (radiocarbon dating) and and appear to have got here just after the eruption. Note that some oral histories say earlier or as early as 800.

Now back to medieval Europe......
Hang on – NO.

These bits of history of how Humans colonised the world are fascinating, and imagine ‘finding’ a brand new ‘world’ - in Canoes. Did they go to NZ because they’d seen the lights, heard the noises and/or were suffering from the fall-out? And in canoes.

Back in 1066, William the Conquerer assembled his fleet to visit England, but had to wait until some storms died down. In the 1300’s Edward III had to wait for the weather to blow itself out before he could take his summer holidays in France, and they had ships and only a few miles to go – Canoes!

Rollyshed, get your archaeologists to find some pre-1320 evidence – I bet they’d love to.

Hi af
absque fenestris wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:57 pm
About the time of 1315, things like: miserable summer, strange sky, bad harvests, hunger or drastic reduction in livestock: nothing.

Nothing but a collection of myths and legends, of course politically corrected.
It seems that you may have well have suffered during the Wet n Windy age. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/17/scie ... ollen.html

I’m not mad keen on newspaper reports, but they often provide names that can Googled.

This is way beyond me, but https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... 13GL059081 may back that last link up.

Jamie Page seems to be a ‘single issue’ historian – but he may mention something such as ‘something was well known in Switzerland c1300’ and reference it. Those references can lead to something worthwhile. https://independent.academia.edu/JamiePage3

You also have the amazing, St Galls Abbey, but it seems that it may not add anything c1300 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06347a.htm except this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_of_Saint_Gall
And not too far away you have https://www.campus-galli.de/baustelle-b ... n#rundgang. Guedelon is still ‘on my list’. https://www.guedelon.fr/en/

It also seems that Durham Abbey was linked to St Galls in Saxon times, and the two references I found are;

Geuenich, D. {1991), 'The St Gall Confraternity of Prayer', in The Culture of the Abbey of St Gall: An Overview, ed. J. C. King and W. Vogler

Vogler, W. {2000), 'Historical Sketch of the Abbey of St Gall', in The Culture of the Abbey of St Gall, ed. J. C. King and W. Vogler.

They may add something, but may not – that’s one of the beautys of research!

Never say die. Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:13 am
RollyShed wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:51 am
Maybe a wee bit off the thread but as Mt Tarawera is in New Zealand (as dorsetUK noticed)..... arrived in New Zealand in several waves of waka (canoe) voyages somewhere between 1320 and 1350 (radiocarbon dating) and and appear to have got here just after the eruption.
Now back to medieval Europe......
Hang on – NO.

These bits of history of how Humans colonised the world are fascinating, and imagine ‘finding’ a brand new ‘world’ - in Canoes. Did they go to NZ because they’d seen the lights, heard the noises and/or were suffering from the fall-out? And in canoes.
They came here for jobs and to eat the moa (birds) to extinction. No, not quite, well the second half yes.
Question - how do you find an island a few feet above the sea surface, from how far away? 2 miles? 150+ miles? In lots of cases the latter and by observing birds. Birds that go out to feed and fly home at night. Birds that migrate - they must be going somewhere. I'd absolutely recommend -
Pathway of the birds : the voyaging achievements of Māori and their Polynesian ancestors
Author: Crowe, Andrew
ISBN: 9781869539610
Publication Date: 2018
New Zealand is a high land but a long way off so migrating birds were the answer there.

Back to Europe, a very interesting book (or so I found) The Safeguard of the Sea - a naval History of Britain Vol 1, 660 - 1649 by N.A.M. Rodger, 1997, pub HarperCollins, 691 pages (a heavy paperback book in reasonably small print !!!). This covers the era being discussed.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Some finds...
The only document we have by a 13th-century architect, the Album of Villard de Honnecourt has been the subject of writings by art and architectural historians since the 19th century and has been considered the work of an amateur since the 1970s. Jean Wirth sheds new light on the question, based on a philological study of the manuscript, and proves that Villard himself is the author of the technical drawings relating to construction.
http://www.oapen.org/search?identifier=579631 Villard de Honnecourt, architecte du XIIIe siècle

Just a nice book. Medieval too...



And so that one shouldn't lose the global overview:

http://worldmapgenerator.com/en
http://worldmapgenerator.com/en/daVinci


About The Safeguard of the Sea - a naval History of Britain - I found this "book club" - has anyone experience with it?

https://artdary.net/get/ebook.php?id=FNKKupCv4VwC



I always thought that the eagles would have made the moas out of it - well, some of them raw, others cooked...

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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AAAAAAAAAAArgh .... money, money, money .... AAAAAAAAAAArgh. :shock:

Sorry all, I feel better now, I think :wink:

Rollyshed and af, thanks for those links. Suddenly, I want to buy books and visit places, but sadly, March is a bad month for me - MOT, vehicle tax and insurance, plus I'm about to move house, and much as I love my Acer Aspire One D252, and it's sibling D225, I am starting to get fed-up with 10" screens, and being very patient whist they open things. :roll:

RollyShed - birds - wow. Such a different world, and I never would have guessed that, in a million years - but, somehow, it makes sense. Our forefathers must have been so much more 'in tune' with nature, than I am - and I live on the edge of a small town, in Dorset!

af - "Book Clubs" - your 'English' is "appreciated". I've avoided such places as when I didn't, after getting my email they asked for my Credit Card - which could be above-board and just checking that I'm an adult - but, um - maybe I'm just too suspicious. To be fair, I didn't get any junk-mail from them.

Could I ask each of you a small favour?

RollyShed, please could you post me your copy of The Safeguard of the Sea.

af, please could you translate http://www.oapen.org/search?identifier=579631 into English for me.

Cheers guys. No rush - tomorrow'll be fine. Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:30 pm
...
af, please could you translate http://www.oapen.org/search?identifier=579631 into English for me.
...
Hi Jon

While looking for academic literature - and amounts about ice research in the Alps - I came across this website:
Academic literature with free access... ... : http://www.oapen.org/home

then the Swiss National Science Foundation was selected: http://www.oapen.org/search?collection- ... tion (SNF)

...and just found this book about Villard de Honnecourt: http://www.oapen.org/search?identifier=579631

The link should lead you directly to the downloadable book and is written in English and French - so I can't translate much. The PDF is of very good quality and not crappy. The publisher actually makes this available as PDF for private use. But maybe I misunderstand your question?

Thanks for the tip about "strange book guilds" and their strange memberships. I'm also very suspicious in this regard - hence my question ...

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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CaptainKirksChair wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:04 am
If you want a good fictional read about that time period, read Michael Crichton's Timeline. As with Crichton's other books, it is a good blend of fiction, science, and action. I personally think it's one of his best.
Hi CaptainKirksChair

I really like Michael Crichton as a writer or director:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaters_of_the_Dead ... I think the novel and the film are very good
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Andromeda_Strain ... dito
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great ... ry_(novel) ... dito
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Sun_(novel) ... dito
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic_Park_(novel)... the classic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coma_(1978_film) ... a classic too. Widmark at his best.
Geneviève ... I don't go into this any further, my sister always joked that my girlfriend/wife looks like G. ...


Of all things, I didn't like Timeline at all - probably because of my job - too much to do with history, historians and archeology and archaeologists... :mrgreen:
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi RollyShed

Your book suggestions are saved and I'm very interested. Well yes, the price - and delivery costs - scares me...

But Thor Heyerdal immediately came to my mind: Applied history, embellished with anecdotes such as "John the Crab" on the Kon-Tiki-Expedition or Disney copies that he received on Easter Island ...
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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absque fenestris wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:10 pm
While looking for academic literature - and amounts about ice research in the Alps - I came across this website: Academic literature with free access... ... : http://www.oapen.org/home

then the Swiss National Science Foundation was selected: http://www.oapen.org/search?collection- ... tion (SNF)

...and just found this book about Villard de Honnecourt: http://www.oapen.org/search?identifier=579631

The link should lead you directly to the downloadable book and is written in English and French - so I can't translate much. The PDF is of very good quality and not crappy. The publisher actually makes this available as PDF for private use. But maybe I misunderstand your question?
Hi af

oapen looks fantastic, but sadly I'm mono-lingual, and the Honnecourt pdf looks fantastic, but all 384 pages are in French, and I could translate every 20th, or so, word. My request for you to translate it, was a joke - although maybe not a good one.

Howsoever, Ms Honnecourt has his own Association http://www.avista.org/

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi all

Bearing in mind that I used to teach Maths, here's one about Ms Honnecourt that's going to get a 2nd read.
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/1 ... 0016-2.pdf

Jon.

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi Jon

Well - translating beautiful books is always a good idea - but what would come out of my translation would be questionable at best.
My French teacher was less convinced of my abilities, unfortunately he recognized himself in all of the caricatures that I also made of him in my school book. The main topic was executions in funny variations. We also didn't agree on the humor.

Scientific publications on the Internet are still very economical in German-speaking countries, much is hidden behind unspeakable registration portals. American educational institutions and libraries in particular are much more generous here. The English are just being presented by you.
There is an urgent need to catch up here.

In addition, serious historiography began here around 1350, before everything was somehow ducal, royal or imperial, but not stored in the original cantons.
Building pass roads was certainly not cheap, and neither was maintaining them. Information on this is far more difficult to find than the condition of a lettuce in the monastery garden of St. Gallen.
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Hi af

Wouldn't it be wonderful if all 'knowledge' was open-source.

Early medieval Switzerland - well, NW Switzerland https://edoc.unibas.ch/57449/.
I hope it'll be useful.

Jon

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Re: Medieval Latin.

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dorsetUK wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:31 am
...
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all 'knowledge' was open-source.
...
Hi Jon

Your word in God's ear. Scientists sometimes seem to me like hens on their eggs - they hatch for years, actually for a lifetime... :mrgreen:

I really have to exempt the OAPEN library, which is a good example of how you can do it - it is worth checking in regularly.

For example, this book fits this thread quite well and I don't have to translate it either: http://www.oapen.org/search?identifier=643110
Killing and Being Killed : Bodies in Battle -- Perspectives on Fighters in the Middle Ages
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Re: Medieval Latin.

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Whose Book Is it Anyway? : A View from Elsewhere on Publishing, Copyright and Creativity

http://www.oapen.org/search?identifier=1004774
Whose Book is it Anyway? is a provocative collection of essays that opens out the copyright debate to questions of open access, ethics, and creativity. It includes views – such as artist’s perspectives, writer’s perspectives, feminist, and international perspectives – that are too often marginalized or elided altogether.
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