Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Moem »

deepakdeshp wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:29 am
all41 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:37 pm
Mint is not for only desktop computers though
What else is it used for?
Laptops.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by all41 »

Moem wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:16 am
deepakdeshp wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:29 am
all41 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:37 pm
Mint is not for only desktop computers though
What else is it used for?
Laptops.
Even some tablets as well
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by MurphCID »

Portreve wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:27 pm
The 1990s were an era of transition which people who did not have computers or who owned one but didn't scratch beneath the surface truly know nothing about. At least, that's been my own experience as someone who first touched a computer in 1984 and first owned one (a Macintosh) in 1986. I've been there and I've watched as we transitioned from a world largely driven by hobbyists and enthusiasts and tinkerers to one which is totally commercialized and commoditized, and one in which all the powers that be want as much control as they can possibly get, both technology companies and (in particular) the entertainment industry.

As for elitism, well... Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of being an a**hole towards other people, but that said, I also well remember the era of the "AOL User" and the general mentality of the new-comer non-geeks that somehow everyone else in industry owed them something (or, everything). I mean, c'mon, if you want to have a computer, at least bother to try learning about technology. I have no use for the intellectually lazy and disengaged. A friend of mine a number of years ago said "Not everyone should be allowed to have a computer." I strongly agree with that statement, even though we live in a world where technology is so embedded in the fabric of our reality that one can seemingly not function without at least some of it.

And yes, MurphCID, most people here on this board have ABSOLUTELY NO FREAKING IDEA what "dependency hell" is all about. It's no wonder that the supposed "Year of Linux" back in 1997/98 failed, and failed hard, and likely scared off generations of potential GNU+Linux users.
Also how many here have had the joy of working on a 1200 baud modem? That was my first one, a hand me down from a buddy who had upgraded to a 2400 baud modem. I think it was a US Robotics, but I cannot remember. I remember going next to a 9600 baud modem, and then after months and months of saving up, a 56k modem! I also remember the first $300 phone bill I got after learning to use the modem, with Kermit, X Modem, Y modem, etc. I did not realize it would cost as much. I was also making a magnificent $8.48 an hour at the time. Blazing fast. As I have said before I was banned from early linux boards for having the audacity, the temerity even to suggest that software come ready to use, and not needing to go out and find each and every dependency. I wanted Flatpacks before the concept even existed! Wow, I was trailblazer and did not even know it! Those early boards were NASTY! Not nice, not helpful, but vicious and nasty. If you could survive those boards, you could survive anywhere. I remember the frustration of attempting to get the modem to work with Mandrake Linux. I never did get it to work, and ended up re-installing Windows.
Last edited by Moem on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Trimmed a quote
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Portreve »

In my time I've owned 1200 and 2400 baud modems. Everex made a model I had called the Emac MD 2400 which had this strange speakerphone capability. True 9600 baud modems were incredibly expensive, so when 14,400 modems were introduced at something like 1/4 the price, I bought one. What a jump in throughput! My two favorite modems were SupraFAXMidem ones with LED displays on the front. The first one was, of course, a 14.4k, and the second was a 28.8k. Eventually, I replaced those with a US Robotics 56k. However, I still miss those other two.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by GS3 »

Portreve wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:27 pm
most people here on this board have ABSOLUTELY NO FREAKING IDEA what "dependency hell" is all about.

Now we can celebrate independency day with barbecue and beer and mattress sales even if most people do not realise the origin. :)
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Barbados99 »

RollyShed wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:23 am
How much do you need to know, understand?
The less that is understood, the inner nuts & bolts, the more the software simply becomes a tool.

1.) Take a pre-computer laptop. The writing slope. Open it as you do a laptop, pull out some paper, take the top off the ink bottle, pick up a pen and write. The "software" is between the ears mainly.

2.) Take a laptop, open it up, boot-up, open LibreOffice Write, write/type the document, plug in/connect to a printer and print the page.

There is little difference between the two, they are both being used as a tool and the software on the laptop is just part of the "Pen & Ink".

1.) You do need to know how to fill the ink well but not need to know the ink formulae. You can buy nibs for the pen rather than chasing the goose for a quill.

2.) You might need to know how to change an ink cartridge in a printer but not the ink formulae.

OK, maybe the human has all the software provided by education to use the writing slope and the laptop has it installed plus the education of the person to use it.
Mint is so user friendly that you don't HAVE to know a lot of in depth stuff to use it. It's a tool. But for those who want to dig a bit deeper, and in essence "customize the pen" a bit - they can do that. There can be a lot of fun for those who like to do that. For them it is kind of a mini-project refining the tool. Not because they have to, but because they enjoy it. Mint is pretty cool due to the fact you can do whatever you want and either keep it simple or dive into deeper waters. I know it's silly caring so much about a computer operating system, but I do. I really enjoy Mint. I'm very thankful for the Mint Team's efforts.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by GS3 »

Portreve wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:06 am
In my time I've owned 1200 and 2400 baud modems. Everex made a model I had called the Emac MD 2400 which had this strange speakerphone capability. True 9600 baud modems were incredibly expensive, so when 14,400 modems were introduced at something like 1/4 the price, I bought one. What a jump in throughput! My two favorite modems were SupraFAXMidem ones with LED displays on the front. The first one was, of course, a 14.4k, and the second was a 28.8k. Eventually, I replaced those with a US Robotics 56k. However, I still miss those other two.
I have owned and used the first 300 and 600 baud modems where you put the phone piece on a cradle.

My first computer with an integrated 1200 baud modem was a Tandy laptop in the early 90s, I forget the exact model but it might be 100 or 1000 or 1100 or something like that. It had a FDD, no HDD and had MS-DOS, BASIC, MS-WORD and MS-Multiplan (Excel spreadsheet) in ROM so it would start up instantly. It had internal NiCad batteries which weighed a ton and a half.

I later had and used 1200/2400 external modems, then 14400, which I seem to remember became the standard for FAX and all the way up to the 56K modems which were the end of the line before DSL came along.

I worked for a distributor of this telecomm equipment. It is hard to believe today but several airlines would share a 1200 / 2400 transatlantic link and put multiplexer / demultiplexers at each end to distribute their data. It seemed like a miracle at the time that a customer could buy an air ticket in Europe and within minutes the airline's mainframe computer in America would have a record of it.

We would sell the airline a 1200, soon 2400, modem at an exorbitant price which included installation, maintenance, etc. In a few years they were being sold in computer stores for just a few dollars.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Barbados99 »

Regarding the trip down memory lane posts, my own experience I started with a Radio Shack TRS80-II in the late 1970s at work. It was our first PC (~100 employees at that time). My boss decided I would get to have it in my office, and was tasked with learning how to use it and I was so happy he did. I had zero knowledge of computers at that point but I could read up and learn (I took some classes at the local university too). Anyway that old TRS80 had an 8-inch single sided floppy for storage and 64k of RAM. Scripsit was the word processor and if memory serves me right we had VisiCalc as the spreadsheet... I do remember we did amazing things with that computer as far as setting up stuff like payroll, inventory and other important functions. It ran on DOS (actually TRSDOS) and had green font on a black screen. I do laugh when I think back and remember that old machine. It was so noisy (I mean really really loud) as it spun that 8" floppy drive. It sounded like an airplane taking off in my office :-)

I got started with my first home computer in the early 1990s. A friend taught me how to build my own computers. He would not do it for me. He was there teaching me but wanted me to learn how to build them instead of relying on him. LOL, it was in my old dark and ugly basement. My wife thought I was nuts (she was right I think). For an OS I had Windows 3.1 but soon began my Linux journey with the original Red Hat v.2 or maybe v.3. I remember it was really really challenging for me. But I stuck with it and eventually set up our own email server and hosted a local not-for-profit agency's web site on it. It was such a different time back then. Looking back I do find it amazing what people could accomplish on those early computers. And again, I was not an I.T. guy (I'm still not). Just a guy who would read and ask questions of others, and "try to figure it out" how to do stuff.

My son who was born back then is now a young adult. We were laughing together the other day about how one of our early home computers even had a homemade case I had made out of wood and old discarded parts from other computers (I'm an avid woodworker too). But who in their right mind does that :-) But then again we were on a tight budget (still am) and saving a few bucks was important.

Now fast forward to today and I have Mint 20 XFCE running on my 2 laptops (that I have cobbled together hardware wise). It is hard for me to grasp the light years we have advanced since those early days. LOL, I still only half know what I'm doing but I do enjoy learning on this journey. I still "break" my systems and have to fix them. But I do fix them with help from the people here on this forum. And I don't think I break them as often now (and I'm thankful for backups). Anyway that's my story, FWIW.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by GS3 »

Barbados99 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:53 am
one of our early home computers even had a homemade case I had made out of wood and old discarded parts from other computers (I'm an avid woodworker too).
I have always worked with wood and metal and even though I have made the strangest things out of wood I have never built a computer case because those computer boxes are eternal and pretty much free. Some of my cases over the years have had four or five or six systems inside. And I get cases for free all the time from donations or dumpsters. They make a good source of sheet metal for other projects. I have a bunch of empty boxes in the basement just as a source of sheet metal.

And I have a couple of computer boxes that appear to be computers but in reality are housing and hiding other things, like the security cameras network recorder. Just stack up a few boxes in a room with half a dozen monitors, etc and it would take a while for a burglar to see which are real computers and which are not connected.

Also, I always thought wood was the worst material for electronics where you are always in need of dissipating heat. Wood is terrible for that. Not to mention risk of fire. I have used PVC for small electronic projects with practically no power or heat but for anything that is going to dissipate more than a few watts I would rather use metal.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Barbados99 »

GS3 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:39 pm
Also, I always thought wood was the worst material for electronics where you are always in need of dissipating heat. Wood is terrible for that. Not to mention risk of fire. I have used PVC for small electronic projects with practically no power or heat but for anything that is going to dissipate more than a few watts I would rather use metal.
I agree with you. And I'd never build one from wood again. But at the time it sounded like a great idea :-)

We did use metal as needed and it had two oversized fans for cooling (it ran plenty cool but noisy). It was the craziest looking thing to look at though. It looked like something from Star Wars, and not in a good way :-) it even had wheels to roll it around. Painted it blue to match my old homemade desk. It was the "Blue Beast" for sure.

As my kids were growing up they just rolled their eyes trying to sheepishly explain to their friends who visited our home, and who wanted to use our computer - about the whole Linux thing. Then they'd fire up the old wooden beast to do stuff on the computer. I knew I had gone overboard with the parenting "weird factor" when my son, in 2nd grade show-and-tell took a bunch of my junk pile computer parts to school and explained to his 2nd grade classmates (and teacher) how to build a computer from them. The really crazy thing is that he was bright enough to actually understand (he really did understand how to build a computer)... and of course my kids all had to understand a bit about Linux because that's what we had.

Anyway my kids have a good laugh about all of this now.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Mick-Cork »

Moem wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:36 am
Now with this, I do think you have a point. The very first page ( https://linuxmint.com/ ) does not say what Linux Mint is. It doesn't call it a project, it doesn't mention it at all. In the footer, I'm told that Linux Mint is free of charge. That's nice. But what is it?

The very first entry in the FAQ is:
What is Linux Mint?

Linux Mint is a free Linux-based operating system designed for use on desktop computers.
It wouldn't need to be asked at all if it were just stated plainly on the first page.
Probably just amusing myself, but I did a mock-up to give a visual idea of possibilities: Image
(It's a hidden imgur post so hopefully only seen if you click on it from here).

I think GS3 has a point that someone looking to switch to Linux, or indeed planning to install LM, would probably do some research in advance. But equally there's always some who will land on a website having heard about it from someone else, and that's when you need to get their attention. My own view is cover all the bases, and when they do land on your site make it easy for them to stay there.

Anyway, me playing, but it would be good if LM managed to update the site before 2020 slips by.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Moem »

That is not bad at all, you might want to try and show it to someone in charge of those things.
Image

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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Portreve »

Mick-Cork wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:13 pm
Probably just amusing myself, but I did a mock-up to give a visual idea of possibilities: Image
(It's a hidden imgur post so hopefully only seen if you click on it from here).
Moem wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:17 am
That is not bad at all, you might want to try and show it to someone in charge of those things.
I'll second Moem's comment: that design and layout is very attractive.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by lsemmens »

Speaking of wooden cases for computers, My "media centre" PC is built into a bookshelf the only thing to indicate it's a computer is the DVD drive on the face and the two Logitech speakers on either side.

My kids all grew up with a computer and when my eldest started high school computer classes (in the 80s) after a couple of lessons, the teacher said "turn up for class, teach me everything you know, and you've passed". He had fun in that class. Later on he'd hacked into the network and sent a message to a screen across the room. The girl on the computer suddenly jumped up and started panicking. Teacher wanders over to see what the problem is. Onscreen was the message "WARNING the radiation shield on your monitor has failed, get back!" Teacher's only response, "Only you, Semmens, only you!!" They all saw the funny side.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by GS3 »

I dislike how corporate marketing-speak has taken over and "solution" is one such empty buzzword.

When you buy our refrigerator you are buying not just a refrigerator but a solution to your refrigeration needs.

When you buy our screwdriver (Made in China) you are buying a solution to some of your screwing needs. Not all because for other of your screwing needs you will need to find other solutions which this device cannot provide.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

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GS3 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:52 am
I dislike how corporate marketing-speak has taken over and "solution" is one such empty buzzword.

When you buy our refrigerator you are buying not just a refrigerator but a solution to your refrigeration needs.

When you buy our screwdriver (Made in China) you are buying a solution to some of your screwing needs. Not all because for other of your screwing needs you will need to find other solutions which this device cannot provide.
Yep, I hummed and ha'd (is that a word?) about using 'solution' in the title. I was equally tempted to use 'product' but that also has its own connotations. It might actually be more accurate though, as LM is a tangible product that comes from all of the hard work by the dev team. I think, because of the Linux desktop development history, there's a general reluctance to use these words. It may be because of the aspirations and striving for excellence, and a modesty (yep I said that!) that holds the various distro teams back from actually saying yes, we have a product.

Or there may be an on-going ethos that underlines the use of the word 'project'?

I guess I'm looking at it purely from a user's perspective, and also thinking how would you like potential new users to view it. How do you inspire them to give it a try. You can try out a solution, you can try out a product, but trying out a project needs a bit of mental gymnastics.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Mick-Cork »

Moem wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:17 am
That is not bad at all, you might want to try and show it to someone in charge of those things.
I fired an email in, with screenshot. Hopefully it'll help spark some new thoughts.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by JerryF »

Both.

First: a solution to having a more secure OS.

Second: a project because the upgrading to a newer release (ex: 19.3 to 20)
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Barbados99 »

Mick-Cork wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:54 am

I guess I'm looking at it purely from a user's perspective, and also thinking how would you like potential new users to view it. How do you inspire them to give it a try. You can try out a solution, you can try out a product, but trying out a project needs a bit of mental gymnastics.
Over the years I've tried to convince friends and family to give Linux a try but not one did. I think that many are afraid of using an OS that is different from the one that came loaded on their computer. Many of these people struggle just to keep the original OS working. They have all sorts of problems, but they stick with what they are somewhat familiar with. It's sad because I feel that Mint (with this forum) gives a person far better support than those other operating systems. In my case nobody told me about Linux. I just read about it online and thought I'd give it a try. That was ~25 years ago (early Redhat versions). I don't ever expect Linux to become mainstream unless most of the main computer manufacturers ship it as their primary (or only) OS. I don't see that happening in the near future anyway. And I'm okay with Linux being what it is. It doesn't have to be the "popular" thing for me to prefer it.

One random thought. I like how Linux has many distros, consequently giving people a wide range of choices. I know many users want to promote their favorite distro as the best. But there is no best distro that meets everyone's expectations. I can understand why others may prefer another distro. And that's okay. I happen to like Mint though. LOL, although I am constantly test-driving countless other distros for fun. Just to see how they work.
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Re: Do you see LM as a 'project' or a 'solution'.

Post by Mick-Cork »

Barbados99 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:19 pm
And I'm okay with Linux being what it is. It doesn't have to be the "popular" thing for me to prefer it.

One random thought. I like how Linux has many distros consequently giving people a wide range of choices. I know many users want to promote their favorite distro as the best. But there is no best distro that meets everyone's expectations. I can understand why others may prefer another distro. And that's okay. I happen to like Mint though.
I tend to agree with all that. I'm also aware however there's a stated position by LM that it seeks to be financially sustainable. It's important for us as users as well that it stays this way. That financial stability comes from popularity. That in turn leads to, or keeps, development resources. More users = more donations, more sponsors, more innovation. And more bug fixes etc. It becomes a cycle that helps ensure long term survival.

Personally I've only ever tried out two distros. Ubuntu for a few days before I found Mint. That was 7-8 years ago (ish). I've worked in IT for many years now and I think it's testimony to LM that I've never felt the need (or desire) to wander away from it.
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