Grammar Pet Peeve

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JerryF
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by JerryF »

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:59 pm
Hi JerryF...back in R.I. back in the early 90s, i had a friend that always said, "not for nothing but....", I never could get my brain around that preface going into his paragraph of what he was trying to say...lol...I think its a Rhode Island thing since i have not heard this elsewhere...DAMIEN
Sadly, it still exists. It's kind of equivalent to saying that the person is going to put in his/her two cents with an upcoming sentence.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by Portreve »

RollyShed wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:28 pm
Portreve wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:07 pm
With all the recent hubub over Epic Games v. Apple, it's probably worth pointing out that to Americans, "Fortnight" is the name of a game (much the same way that a "two liter" is the name of a type of a beverage bottle, and not really directly thought of as a measurement) and not that it's a term for a period of fourteen days, as anyone in the British Isles, India, Australia, and possibly Canada, would also be familiar with.
When did that happen? A fortnight has always been two weeks. A litre is a volume. We always measure liquid quantity in litres. We buy petrol by the litre.
I have no idea when "fortnight" fell out of use in America. Presumably it was used at the beginning of folks from England and related lands settling here and continued for some time thereafter, but for how long I couldn't say.

The U.S. stubbornly refuses to metricate on the societal level, even though by treaty law we have adopted the SI as the basis for any other unit of measure to be defined as, and for direct usage in certain specific fields. But, to this day, if you are here in the States and hear two random people off the street talking and the words “gram” or “kilogram” come up, you can safely assume they're talking about narcotics.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by lsemmens »

kelevra wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:18 am
I think a lot of errors like that are a person's reliance on a spellchecker and not proofreading the final product. I catch little things like that all the time.
Agreed. I detest poor spelling and grammar, especially those (whose native language is English) who cannot determine the difference between "loose" and "lose". I'm sure native speakers of other languages would also have similar peeves.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Portreve wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:17 pm
...I've never been able to isolate it, but there are groups of Americans who drop the "to be" verb in sentences, both spoken and written. What really gets me is there are TEACHERS who do this.
I know what you mean. It happens when a conjugation of "to be" is used in a contraction. For example, "They're going to the store" becomes, "They goin' to the store" (dropping the "g" in "ing" is common with a lot of people). I was reluctant to mention it because many people would wrongly accuse me of being a racist.

What really bites my ample asset is how ignorant people are when they get out of school. After I retired from the company that provides my pension, I worked in a convenience store until shortly before Social Security kicked in. I got to see a lot of the job applications. Most went to the trash because of the horrible spelling and grammar written on them. These were high school graduates and even college students. :roll:
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by Portreve »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:26 pm
I know what you mean. It happens when a conjugation of "to be" is used in a contraction. For example, "They're going to the store" becomes, "They goin' to the store" (dropping the "g" in "ing" is common with a lot of people).
Nope, that's not what I'm referring to.

“That hinge needs to be lubricated” becomes “That hinge needs lubricated”. “That wall needs to be painted” becomes “That wall needs painted”.

Don't even get me started on Ebonics and African-Americans' need to establish a sense of cultural identity given theirs was stolen from them. Ebonics comes straight out of Minstrelsy, and is in fact an insult to who they are: fellow intelligent and capable human beings.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Portreve wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:14 pm
Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:26 pm
I know what you mean. It happens when a conjugation of "to be" is used in a contraction. For example, "They're going to the store" becomes, "They goin' to the store" (dropping the "g" in "ing" is common with a lot of people).
Nope, that's not what I'm referring to.

“That hinge needs to be lubricated” becomes “That hinge needs lubricated”. “That wall needs to be painted” becomes “That wall needs painted”.

Don't even get me started on Ebonics and African-Americans' need to establish a sense of cultural identity given theirs was stolen from them. Ebonics comes straight out of Minstrelsy, and is in fact an insult to who they are: fellow intelligent and capable human beings.
Ok, I never heard that usage.

Ebonics is a sad cover-up for ignorance, especially when peer pressure promotes it. When Ebonics was first suggested, most educators shot it down.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

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Make no mistake: some people who vilify correct grammar and spelling, do so because they have a cultural revolution in mind that doesn't differ too much from the original Chinese one:
In the most general sense, the Cultural Revolution represented the triumph of anti-intellectualism and the consistent, decade-long deprecation of scholarship, formal education, and all the qualities associated with professionalism in science. Intellectuals were assumed to be inherently counter-revolutionary, and it was asserted that their characteristic attitudes and practices were necessarily opposed to the interests of the masses.

Universities were closed from the summer of 1966 through 1970, when they reopened for undergraduate training with very reduced enrolments and a heavy emphasis on political training and manual labour. Students were selected for political rectitude rather than academic talent.

Primary and secondary schools were closed in 1966 and 1967, and when reopened were repeatedly disrupted by political struggle. All scientific journals ceased publication in 1966, and subscriptions to foreign journals lapsed or were cancelled. For most of a decade China trained no new scientists or engineers and was cut off from foreign scientific developments.
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-2822.html

I've read a book written by a Chinese-Dutch author who grew up in China during China's Cultural revolution, in which she describes how being expert at anything, even at some simple manual work, was regarded as highly suspicious.

There are tendencies in modern Western societies that go into the same direction; correct grammar and spelling have been drawing fire because of those tendencies. Same mindset, and in some cases even the same goals.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by GS3 »

Portreve wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:14 pm
“That hinge needs to be lubricated” becomes “That hinge needs lubricated”. “That wall needs to be painted” becomes “That wall needs painted”.
This use is regional in parts of America.
Portreve wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:14 pm
Don't even get me started on Ebonics and African-Americans' need to establish a sense of cultural identity given theirs was stolen from them. Ebonics comes straight out of Minstrelsy, and is in fact an insult to who they are: fellow intelligent and capable human beings.
That's one way of looking at it. There are others. We better stay away from this topic or posts will disappear and the thread will be locked.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by GS3 »

Pjotr wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:18 am
Make no mistake: some people who vilify correct grammar and spelling, do so because they have a cultural revolution in mind that doesn't differ too much from the original Chinese one:
In the most general sense, the Cultural Revolution represented the triumph of anti-intellectualism and the consistent, decade-long deprecation of scholarship, formal education, and all the qualities associated with professionalism in science. Intellectuals were assumed to be inherently counter-revolutionary, and it was asserted that their characteristic attitudes and practices were necessarily opposed to the interests of the masses.

Universities were closed from the summer of 1966 through 1970, when they reopened for undergraduate training with very reduced enrolments and a heavy emphasis on political training and manual labour. Students were selected for political rectitude rather than academic talent.

Primary and secondary schools were closed in 1966 and 1967, and when reopened were repeatedly disrupted by political struggle. All scientific journals ceased publication in 1966, and subscriptions to foreign journals lapsed or were cancelled. For most of a decade China trained no new scientists or engineers and was cut off from foreign scientific developments.
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-2822.html

I've read a book written by a Chinese-Dutch author who grew up in China during China's Cultural revolution, in which she describes how being expert at anything, even at some simple manual work, was regarded as highly suspicious.

There are tendencies in modern Western societies that go into the same direction; correct grammar and spelling have been drawing fire because of those tendencies. Same mindset, and in some cases even the same goals.
I agree but it is not new, just gaining traction.

There is a famous article by Isaac Asimov published around 1980, 40 years ago, in which he said
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurturing the false notion that democracy means that ‘My ignorance is as good as your knowledge’.
I wish I could find the whole article but my Google-fu is weak today. It's out there.

It is an easy thing for leaders of all sorts to flatter the ignorant by telling them they're as good as the learned. And because there are many more ignorant than learned they can often subvert a society. I could cite many examples but we'd be getting into politics.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by Pjotr »

"Cult of ignorance". Nice one.

Rules for grammar and spelling are, essentially, simply a way to improve clarity of communication and to reduce misunderstandings. That's why they're so vitally important.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by GS3 »

Pjotr wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:00 am
"Cult of ignorance". Nice one.
The article can be found at https://aphelis.net/wp-content/uploads/ ... orance.pdf (PDF) and attached as text file.
Pjotr wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:00 am
Rules for grammar and spelling are, essentially, simply a way to improve clarity of communication and to reduce misunderstandings. That's why they're so vitally important.
Well, yes and no. There is more to it than that. Correct standard usage of vocabulary, spelling, grammar, punctuation, capitalization, etc. help readers who are used to the same standard. No doubt. But I go even further. They show a respect and consideration from the writer to the reader. We would not demand the same level of writing from someone who is not fluent in the language. But when I see a post with no capitalization, no punctuation, no paragraph breaks, the first thing I think is not "this is going to require effort from me to read", no, I think "this lazy poster has no respect or consideration for me and wants me to spend my effort reading his post so I will just skip it". But if the bad grammar is obviously due to lack of fluency then I will overlook the defect.

Not only that. I see many first posts which, with perfect spelling and grammar, are so cryptic that I can only think of many questions in response, and the first one would be "can't you see there is no way to answer without getting more details? Why were you lazy and expect us to extract the information from you?" Again, lack of respect and consideration.

Very often I try to be redundant in my posts because I know sometimes posts can be interpreted in different ways or misinterpreted. Redundancy avoids that.

So, more important than anything else, correct writing is a show of respect and consideration for others, just like dressing appropriately and other social conventions.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by Pjotr »

GS3 wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:49 am
correct writing is a show of respect and consideration for others
Yes, there is that as well. And even that aspect is ultimately connected to the importance of clear communication: by writing (or at least sincerely trying to write) in accordance with the rules for grammar and spelling, you minimize the effort that the reader has to make in order to understand what you mean.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

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Having heard the Asimov quote before, I've just now read the Newsweek article (thank you, GS3) for the first time. I had truly wondered what it was 'ol Isaac was up to; that curiosity is now satisfied.

There's two different exhortations which come to mind. The first is the expression “It's not what you know, but who.” The second is part of the lyrics to Billy Joel's It's Still Rock-N-Roll To Me:
What's the matter with the crowd I'm seeing?
Don't you know that they're out of touch?
Should I try to be a straight 'A' student?
If you are then you think too much.
Don't you know about the new fashion honey?
All you need are looks and a whole lotta money.

It's the next phase, new wave, dance craze, anyways
It's still rock & roll to me.
I've heard the assertion before that language changes all the time as a justification for why I shouldn't care about how someone writes and/or speaks. However, that is easily disproven. One doesn't have to take language standards progression as an idle thought experiment, but even if one did, it would be obvious language legitimately changes over time to become simultaneously cleaner and more inclusive of developing times and facts. However, if one takes people each doing their own thing with language to its logical conclusion, you would have highly incompatible versions of a language which would be mutually unintelligible. This isn't a concept unique to language; rather, it extends to every field of endeavor. Would you want to be a passenger in a plane in a world where every pilot made up the rules and flew however they felt like? What if all the folks who write software decide to just make up their own rules and typed up their code any way they felt like it?
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

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I've lost count of all the articles I've read on CNN, The Hill, basis and assorted tech rags, etc., which have grammatical errors and, incredibly, straight-up in-your-face spelling mistakes. How can professional news sources allow this? Why don't they take pride in their finished product?
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by GS3 »

Principal / Principle

Affect / Effect

Loose / Lose
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by cliffcoggin »

Portreve wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:51 pm
I've lost count of all the articles I've read on CNN, The Hill, basis and assorted tech rags, etc., which have grammatical errors and, incredibly, straight-up in-your-face spelling mistakes. How can professional news sources allow this? Why don't they take pride in their finished product?
Back in the days of manual type setting the Guardian newspaper was referred to in some quarters as the Grauniad because of the number of spelling errors.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by Portreve »

cliffcoggin wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:16 pm
Back in the days of manual type setting the Guardian newspaper was referred to in some quarters as the Grauniad because of the number of spelling errors.
That's halirosui!
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

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Portreve wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:51 pm
I've lost count of all the articles I've read on CNN, The Hill, basis and assorted tech rags, etc., which have grammatical errors and, incredibly, straight-up in-your-face spelling mistakes. How can professional news sources allow this? Why don't they take pride in their finished product?
I've yet to hear a weather forecaster pronounce "temperature" correctly: they always pronounce it "temperture". Around only 1/3 of news talking heads pronounce "veteran" correctly.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

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Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:32 pm
I've yet to hear a weather forecaster pronounce "temperature" correctly: they always pronounce it "temperture". Around only 1/3 of news talking heads pronounce "veteran" correctly.
So, is there something amiss with "tem - pur - ah - chur - ee" and "veh - chrun"? Seems perfectly alright to me.
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Re: Grammar Pet Peeve

Post by Schultz »

I didn't read every post in this thread, so I might be repeating something. I think the one that irks me the most is when I see "your" when it should be "you're." I also notice "your self" a lot when it should be "yourself." Also, the expression is "I couldn't care less." But it seems 90% of people say "I could care less." If you "could care less," then that means you care somewhat. If I think of more, "I'll be back." :wink:
Last edited by Schultz on Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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