How do you select the ones you help?

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Kadaitcha Man
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:31 pm
AKA, (also known as), those who have been known to bite the hands of those whom have fed them...lol.
It happens a lot, then those same people complain when nobody replies to them. I have a very full ignore list on this forum. I don't use it to ignore posters, but to identify them as potential problem posters. I will help someone I've got on ignore, but generally I find they continue to behave in the same way as what I put them on ignore for. I especially don't take to posts that involve demands to fix a complete and utter mess that the poster themselves created, and I always try to skip posts where it appears that posting on the forum is a panic-mode kneejerk reaction to something that could have been very easily resolved with a quick google. So, I don't like it when we are treated as personal search serfs for people who should know better.

I put it down to a failure to engage the brain and do a bit of thinking.
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by DAMIEN1307 »

The ones that i usually ignore are the ones who declare at the end of their posts, any of the following...

''I need an IMMEDIATE response, I need this resolved NOW, Im just going back to Windows if you cant fix this'',... and a host of others in the same vein...lol...DAMIEN
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by lsemmens »

If I can help, I will try. I am no Linux guru, so my assistance is very limited. All of the above comments regarding stupid questions and statements and the response notwithstanding.
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GS3
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by GS3 »

Welcome wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:36 am
I've learned it isn't as easy as I thought, and that I really don't know as much as I thought I did! :D I've learned more in the past few months trying to help on the forum than in years of my own exploration.
It is a very common thing that people think they know more than they do. I vaguely remember some experiment where they asked people on the street if they knew some relatively simple things and when they said yes they were asked to explain it and then most of them could not explain it because they thought they knew but they didn't. One question that stuck with me was "do you know how a common toilet works?". It seems simple enough, you flush and it works. But, very few people were able to explain in detail how and why it works. They just thought they knew but when asked to explain it they could not.

If you really know and understand something you should be able to explain it to others. That is why explaining and teaching something are the best way of learning and making sure you know it well.

Much criticism is being levelled against newbie advice seekers who are rude or demanding but I also think there is some criticism deserved by some advice givers who are also rude and demanding. Just give your advice if you want but do not expect others to follow it blindly or to drop everything to do what you say. If you are not happy with the OP just abandon the thread. There is no need to be obnoxious. Not that there is a lot of this but even a little is too much. (And sometimes the self-appointed "expert" turns out to be wrong after all.) A little friendliness and humility goes a long way. There are a few real experts here who I value as much for their technical help as for their friendly attitude.
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by Moem »

GS3 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:13 am
A little friendliness and humility goes a long way.
Quoted in order to highlight it, because it's true. I believe that many newcomers are easily put off by harsh sounding words, even if the words are true (but how would they know?). Being just a little kinder takes very little extra time and makes it that much more likely that your advice will be taken to heart.
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by cliffcoggin »

GS3 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:13 am
If you really know and understand something you should be able to explain it to others.
In an ideal world that would be true, unfortunately it's rare for somebody to know a subject and be able to communicate it effectively to others. That is the reason teaching is a profession not just a bunch of experts spouting their knowledge.
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by GS3 »

cliffcoggin wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:00 am
GS3 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:13 am
If you really know and understand something you should be able to explain it to others.
In an ideal world that would be true, unfortunately it's rare for somebody to know a subject and be able to communicate it effectively to others. That is the reason teaching is a profession not just a bunch of experts spouting their knowledge.
Well, I disagree. Some people are better communicators and better at interacting with people but anyone who really understands something should be able to explain it even if they take longer to do it. To me someone saying "I know and understand how X works but I cannot explain it" is like someone saying "I can speak French but I just can't pronounce it ". I you cannot explain how X works then, as far as I am concerned, you do not know how X works. Maybe others can explain it more succinctly but anyone who knows it knows how to tell others even if not the best communicator for the task.

If you are taking a civil engineering exam or having a project for a bridge approved you are not allowed to say "I know it is right but I just cannot explain why it is right". No, either you explain it and justify it or it fails.

Imagine a lawyer saying "Your Honor, the accused ought to go free, I cannot quite explain why because I am not too good at this talking thing but I know deep in my heart he oughta go free and I am sure you will agree with me."

Nope. Either you can explain it or you really do not know as much as you thought you did. Contrary to what many people feel, feelings and hunches are not true understanding.
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by MartyMint »

GS3 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:43 pm


If you are taking a civil engineering exam or having a project for a bridge approved you are not allowed to say "I know it is right but I just cannot explain why it is right". No, either you explain it and justify it or it fails.


Not everyone possesses the social conditioning and human interaction skills to deal with strangers either in person or across the web.

It has nothing to do with "knowledge on the subject matter" or expertise in the given field.

Some folks (levels of IQ aside) are just not "people people".
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by majpooper »

A while back someone on this forum was irritated that a new person did not explicitly follow the forum rules for asking a question and was a bit harsh. There was a bit of a disagreement about how OP should have been handled. I responded in a PM.
majpooper wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:20 pm
I am not going to indulge in a flame war because we obviously disagree on this point and I doubt I can convince you otherwise but I will explain my point of view because you asked.

But no I don't think the OP asked the question in the wrong way. For me, on this forum, the wrong way is more about attitude than about strict adherence to question rules.

This forum is very casual and relaxed in terms of strictly enforcing the "how to ask a question " rules. Yes it would be great if everyone followed them to the letter but that is not the culture in this forum environment. Rather the culture is to be overly friendly and to be quite permissive in terms of how questions are asked. Typically noobs are asked diplomatically to do the things that you mention and most often as they gain experience they comply. How to ask questions is also a learning experience as much as learning about linux is - it certainly was for me. Anyway IMHO since this is a social setting not a professional or military environment, the welcoming and more gentle approach is much more productive and in the long run better for all of us who are Mint enthusiast. The last thing we both want is to turn people away from the forum and hence Mint - so yeah I say cut them some slack.
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by lsemmens »

majpooper wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:48 pm
A while back someone on this forum was irritated that a new person did not explicitly follow the forum rules for asking a question and was a bit harsh. There was a bit of a disagreement about how OP should have been handled. I responded in a PM.
majpooper wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:20 pm
I am not going to indulge in a flame war because we obviously disagree on this point and I doubt I can convince you otherwise but I will explain my point of view because you asked.

But no I don't think the OP asked the question in the wrong way. For me, on this forum, the wrong way is more about attitude than about strict adherence to question rules.

This forum is very casual and relaxed in terms of strictly enforcing the "how to ask a question " rules. Yes it would be great if everyone followed them to the letter but that is not the culture in this forum environment. Rather the culture is to be overly friendly and to be quite permissive in terms of how questions are asked. Typically noobs are asked diplomatically to do the things that you mention and most often as they gain experience they comply. How to ask questions is also a learning experience as much as learning about linux is - it certainly was for me. Anyway IMHO since this is a social setting not a professional or military environment, the welcoming and more gentle approach is much more productive and in the long run better for all of us who are Mint enthusiast. The last thing we both want is to turn people away from the forum and hence Mint - so yeah I say cut them some slack.
Can I get an AMEN! Well said, mate!
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by ZakGordon »

Pjotr wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:10 pm
For me, the fun is both in helping people and in trying to solve technical riddles. I learn from the feedback, as well. It's an intellectual pleasure, too. Sometimes you fire an intuitive shot in the dark, and when it brings success to the help seeker, it feels great.
And i will always thank you for the help you showed me when i first moved from Windows to Mint, and it's been a fantastic journey of discovery for myself that now has a more or less Linux Mint household, and no actual real reliance on Windows anymore (just by choice for games!).

I help where i can, but as a linux mint newbie still (with the baggage of a lifetime of Windows) i know my limits and stick to topics i have had experience in (like over-heating laptops etc). I also go through the new posts that have been unanswered and where it is clear the OP has not read the faq or 'how to get help' section and push them in it's direction.

Oh i also avoid being overtly rude, as Linux IS often overly complex and it is going to get more requests for help from those (trying to) using it, that is just in the DNA of the OS. So being snarky or rude just because someone does not have a great depth of experience in Linux seems a super low blow to me, so i never do that.

The obvious trolls i just ignore.
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Re: How do you select the ones you help?

Post by MartyMint »

ZakGordon wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:09 pm

And i will always thank you for the help you showed me when i first moved from Windows to Mint, and it's been a fantastic journey of discovery for myself that now has a more or less Linux Mint household, and no actual real reliance on Windows anymore (just by choice for games!).
If you want to use Windows for any reason you want, just use it. You don't need to qualify yourself.

Well...at least you didn't spell Microsoft with a dollar sign or mention Bill Gates....

:roll:
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