Why do new people give up on Linux?

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FedoraRefugee
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

tower wrote:FedoraRefugee, you miss the point, they are covert Linux operatives, they must have a disguise :lol:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by tower »

Men in black - TUXedos!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by zerofire »

The problem with Linux is that it is essentially chaos to the nth degree. In each distribution you have the kernel and a huge load of add-ons and thats it. There is no userland to speak of. This is contrary to what BSD and Windows does where they each have their kernels, a specified userland that provides minimum functionality, and add-on packages to give the user something they might be missing. Once average Joe goes from the standardized userland of Windows to Linux he freaks since what used to be the userland, his safe haven, becomes just a collection of add-on packages that shift and break on occasion. Since Joe does not like this constant shifting even when it is slightly controlled by the distribution he will panic if something goes wrong and will want to return to what once was.

Essentially what the average person sees is an ever changing environment while in Windows everything is constant and Microsoft controls all of the corrections in a invisible manner in most cases. When Windows breaks down the person just goes to a mechanic after freaking out for an hour. When Linux breaks down the person freaks out for an hour and can't fix it since they lack the skills and no mechanic will ever help them,

While the existing way that the Linux system is built is great for innovation, features, and modularity but lacks serious control such that the user has enough consistency in their own space to use it. Essentially only those who are willing to fix errors and withstand change end up with the ability to survive in Linux.

This comes from a person that has used Windows 95 through Windows 7, a dozen Linux disto's including Mint, all 4 major BSD's, and who wants to get a Mac to learn about Mac OS.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by oobetimer »

If you like speed, usability, customization and security, you like Linux .. :wink:
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shane
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by shane »

@zerofire

I'm sure you must have heard this before... Linux is not Windows. If you want something like what you have in Windows... then use Windows. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that they've used Windows since nth version and are Windows experts... and hence they should be Linux savvy. That is wrong. It doesn't matter. If you're new to Linux you are a newbie. We have to put the pride away and take the baby steps. We've all had to do it.

Trying to tell a very opinionated and freedom-loving community what they should and should not do is never going to work. Look at Oracle with their billions attempting to control OpenSolaris and OpenOffice. The people who have invested the most i.e. the community are always going to control it. So, if you want to change it, you have to become part of it. If you don't, the community (as a whole) is still going to have what they want.

As for never getting help in Linux, you do realise that one of the main purposes of these forums is to provide help...
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by LongRider »

shane wrote:We have to put the pride away and take the baby steps. We've all had to do it.
Well said!
Many seem to miss the fact that it takes a little bit of work on their part to learn a new O/S. Like reading a little bit about your new O/S and how it works. How to post in a forum and what info you should include. What a sticky is. Simple things like that.

For those of us old enough to remember, could you imagine this "Nintendo Generation" back in the early days of PC's. When you had to boot the O/S from a big floppy and got nothing but the old C> prompt?!?!? Ok, so I'm a bit of a dinosaur. Some may remember way back when the standard answer to every question was "RTFM". But the fact remains we ALL had to start from nothing and learn. Somehow that whole "Learning" aspect has been lost. Today everyone just wants to plug it in and expects it to run exactly how "they" think it should. And when it doesn't live up to their expectations it "sucks" and nobody should be using it! Ignorance at it best!

For those that are willing to learn, I commend you! You will find many people in the Linux Community (especially here in the Mint forums) that are willing to help you. And that Linux is a solid, secure O/S.

Most also don't realize that there will always be bumps in the road regardless of what O/S you use. Its just how technology is.
I guess its just easier for someone to blame what they don't understand instead of trying to find a fix for it or learn!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by TriggerHappy »

LongRider wrote:... You will find many people in the Linux Community (especially here in the Mint forums) that are willing to help
Could some of these many people you speak of please visit my cry for help here:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=56315

Thanks!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by kmb42vt »

exploder wrote:
The way I see it, newbies assume that everyone knows that they are newbies.
I agree completely. If I don't understand something I just come right out and say so, that's the way I have always been.
And taking a look at your level indicator at the right it looks like you've asked a whole lot of questions. learn anything yet? :D

Okay, okay...I'm just kidding. Couldn't resist, mate.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by zerofire »

shane wrote:@zerofire

I'm sure you must have heard this before... Linux is not Windows. If you want something like what you have in Windows... then use Windows. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that they've used Windows since nth version and are Windows experts... and hence they should be Linux savvy. That is wrong. It doesn't matter. If you're new to Linux you are a newbie. We have to put the pride away and take the baby steps. We've all had to do it.

Trying to tell a very opinionated and freedom-loving community what they should and should not do is never going to work. Look at Oracle with their billions attempting to control OpenSolaris and OpenOffice. The people who have invested the most i.e. the community are always going to control it. So, if you want to change it, you have to become part of it. If you don't, the community (as a whole) is still going to have what they want.

As for never getting help in Linux, you do realise that one of the main purposes of these forums is to provide help...
There is no connection between being an expert in Windows and being able to use Linux or even be an expert in any other operating system type (BSD, Mac OS, Linux, Unix, etc.). Pride has nothing to do with the jump between OS types, being unable to accept change is however.

As for the help part there is a huge problem. Some people let pride get in the way but the average computer user does not want to do any of his own maintenance. Essentially he wants another person in the real world to fix all of his problems and almost no mechanic has Linux experience. You visit almost any IT department, mention Linux, and you can guarantee you will get funny faces of bewilderment. Also not every system is able to connect to the Internet right off the bat. There are many who struggle with NIC card configurations due to either being lazy to plug in an Ethernet wire or flat out incompatible hardware. I myself am lucky that my T23 comes with an Intel NIC that auto-configures as I have no Wi-Fi card on it.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer »

I disagree that there is no connection between being a Windows expert and being able to use Linux. A Windows expert applies Windows knowledge to solve a Linux problem. A new user to computers simply has to find the solution. One person is forcing a cube into a circular hole, while the other is either trying all the shapes until one fits or asking someone who knows which shape to use.

A similar scenario would occur to a Linux expert trying Windows for the first time.
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shane
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by shane »

zerofire wrote: There is no connection between being an expert in Windows and being able to use Linux or even be an expert in any other operating system type (BSD, Mac OS, Linux, Unix, etc.). Pride has nothing to do with the jump between OS types, being unable to accept change is however.
Well maybe pride is not the proper word. What I mean is, there are many people who know and understand how Windows works (it's usually the Windows users, since everything else is related to UNIX)... and when they come to Linux, don't know. But still they refuse to take on that 'newbie' label and just reject the whole thing because it is not what they expect. A good example is the structure of the file system. They go on to just reject the whole concept from the start... declaring that having a C drive is they way to go.
zerofire wrote: As for the help part there is a huge problem. Some people let pride get in the way but the average computer user does not want to do any of his own maintenance. Essentially he wants another person in the real world to fix all of his problems and almost no mechanic has Linux experience. You visit almost any IT department, mention Linux, and you can guarantee you will get funny faces of bewilderment. Also not every system is able to connect to the Internet right off the bat. There are many who struggle with NIC card configurations due to either being lazy to plug in an Ethernet wire or flat out incompatible hardware. I myself am lucky that my T23 comes with an Intel NIC that auto-configures as I have no Wi-Fi card on it.
At the moment, Linux is a niche market. That's just the way it is. Going with the car metaphor, if I had a Tesla and took it to the local mechanic he's most probably not going to know heads from tails. This is not the fault of Tesla motors. The real fault lies with the machanic for not keeping up to date with new developments... though that would need learning a whole different system. And also the owner is at fault for not asuring a proper support system when things go wrong. That is a big consideration when actually getting a car like a Tesla.

If a user actually decides to install Linux they are obviously not at the level of my mom, for example. If I were to install Linux for my mom, then the onus is on me to provide support for her. Users who decide to dive in really should be savvy enough to take precautions... either to solve problems or roll back. If they don't, they will learn... the hard way. I did. And honestly I think Linux makes the switch infinitely easier than other OSs. There is a lot of documentation on hardware compatibility, LiveCDs, native support for dual booting, etc. Compare that to the number of people that had issues in the XP to Vista upgrade.

And on a side note, I have never in my +6 years of using Linux encountered an ethernet card that didn't work in Linux. If plugging in the cable is a problem, I think we can safely say that the OS is not the problem here.
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shane
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by shane »

zerofire wrote:... but the average computer user does not want to do any of his own maintenance...
If this kind of user is your target audience, I think Linux Mint is the best OS/distro you could give them. I don't know about Mac OS X. If you threw Mint on a machine and got everything working, it will remain that way. Mint is great like that. It installs updates, but only packages that are sure to not cause breakages. This is one area where Mint beats Ubuntu hands down for the 'average computer user'. Basically, Mint is a 'set it and forget it' distro... requiring minimum maintenance.

OTOH, the same 'average computer user' in Windows is expected to update the antivirus, perform regular full system scans, scan each download, be weary of malware, spyware, etc... keep scanners for those updated, probably maintain a firewall, regularly defragment the harddrive, etc... in addition to keeping the OS up to date.

If I wanted to setup Linux for a user like this, I would ask what applications they require, set up their system for them, create a user without admin privileges and let them live in that. Of course it means doing the admin tasks for them... but IMO it is way better than cleaning up a nasty mess.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by grey1960envoy »

I can only give my own testimony as to how I feel toward Mint and other OS that I have tried .Being a recent migrant from Windoze I (and my wife ) are very happy with mint we run it on every computer in the house except one which is just used as backup LOL we both used windoze since the 95 (or should I say BSOD)version came out and really had no problem changing to mint aside from growing pains.I have also found MOST people in these forums are very helpful if you don't come out with such dumb sayings as "If you don't help I'm going to go to another OS".This kind of mentality is inbred in the average person on the street as I read earlier "you find this on the streets and in the courts".You will only get out of Mint what you put into it .I am not going to say that I never thought of going back to M$$$$ but perseverance has paid off.My wife,at first, was less than optomistic at my choice in Mint after the fiasco with Fedora (I wanted to file the laptop under G) because I knew nothing about command lines.I also tried to use Ubuntu ,Knoppix and Puppy linux prior to downloading and installing Isadora.I will concede that no matter which OS you use there are always going to be issues that need addressing be it M$ Mac or any of the freeware but therein lies the fun and freedom of choice. I might also add that more of my close friends and family are tiring of Bilk ya for all I can Gates and trying Mint or other open source systems.The big thing is cost and the constant likelihood of malware invading their precious files.BEST DAMN 31 CENTS I EVER INVESTED !!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D
In a perfect world everything has it's place, Linux on my computer, windows on the wall, and M$ in the trash!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by allypink »

I don't think many linux folks care if people come over from MS or if MS remains the dominant force. I include myself in this; most linux uses are more than happy with the circumstances as they are and if other people want an out of the box OP system with all it's troubles and woes let them have windows.
I myself (and many others) love linux, it's freedoms and flexabilities. I always make donations to whatever distro i have settled on using (currently Mint) 'cause I am unable to contribute in other ways. I don't have windows on any computer anymore. Don't need it or want it. I am still a registered owner of XP pro, but it will just gather dust on the shelf.
I have been a linux user since I discovered SUSE 10. I duel-booted for years and after I gained confidence and experence in linux I have never looked backed. I have not found anything linux could not do and some things windows can't do.
More power to the script writers and programers who keep linux flowing. I will continue to donate to make their work viable and do my bit. Let those windows folks have there bloatware and Bill Gates. :D
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

allypink wrote:I don't think many linux folks care if people come over from MS or if MS remains the dominant force.
that's why with this attitude Ubuntu bug #1 will never be solved.


to add my opinion here - i am not much interested in the OS itself as i am in programmes it can run. if it can't run the programmes i use and if no alternatives exist then it's a useless os.

My first computer was Spectrum 48k+ and started out with Basic (that was installed there). I too like many started out with Dos on a propper PC. in fact it was Dos 3.0. my relief came with Norton commander as it made things so much easier.

Point is i could still use DOS if it ran all the latest programmes i use :D since it doesn't and neither does Linux i am stuck winXP. And these MS systems never really mess up your computer with updates and patches. you can however mess it up yourself or with "certain" programmes.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Clyde »

I too started with dos back in the dark ages ...and remember thinking I would never switch to the new debutante on the block; 'Windows'. It took some time to master the Windows environment to the point of being able to tackle most problems that came along the way. In the past 2 years, I've experimented with a few Linux distros. Today, I use Mint 100% - I can still collaborate with friends, relatives and business peers who use Windows. We exchange power point presentations, photos, video, text etc. many are not aware of what Linux is ... let alone that I am using it. For everything I was using with Windows, there is a counterpart application that I am using with Mint. The only software applications I don't use, since they are not needed with Linux, are the countless 'maintenance utilities' that are needed to run a Windows system.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MALsPa »

zerofire wrote:Once average Joe goes from the standardized userland of Windows to Linux he freaks
Who is that Average Joe guy, anyway? :lol:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer »

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DrHu
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by DrHu »

I don't want to go through your whole list
--because that list is already well known and understood by most Linux users, if they have adopted Linux as their OS of choice. Choice being the imperative word..

I'll just pick out a couple of points
chris0101 wrote:1. Most people expect things to be very close to Windows. Perhaps an operating system that looks like the one below with an automatic Wine function built in is the solution. (Most likely, the MS Messenger would be Wined of course). This is because people are inherently averse to change and because they actually have to learn it again.
4. Poor tech support or because few other people around them use it. When there is trouble with Windows, you can ask somebody around to help. Mac, with its growing market share, is starting to be like that as well. Linux? Not as easy
1. Most people expect things to be very close to Windows.
That's too bad..

As companies that compete with Microsoft say, even a few percent of the total market is good enough for them, they aren't all trying to be or unseat the Microsoft hegemony

Or as an Apple OS-X user might say, that doesn't mean me, I use a MAC.

4. Poor tech support or because few other people around them use it.
Less true than ever..
If you listen to employer or company statistics. Most people (the larger percentage) will seek an answer for their OS problem on the Internet, rather than ask some other person, who they could suspect knows as little about the OS as themselves to help them muddle through their problem

It is true that even with Apple getting more traction in the marketplace, that the Microsoft OS still is predominant in companies, so tech support in companies will inherently only provide their support to Microsoft windows OS (at least in terms of formal policy)

The majority of your discussion points are the standard windows OS user complaints about anything other than windows
--in fact, since I am a Linux fan, and not particularly against the windows OS, since it seems OK to me, at least from winXP onwards, excluding Vista of course where Microsoft tried the same dump their customer base that Apple did when they switched from OS9 to OS-X, for very legitimate reasons.
  • If people, that is, windows OS users were really afraid of change or if Apple users, likewise: they would all have abandoned their OS, and produced an orphan. That didn't happen.
So what about those complaints, OK, your call discussion points..
Linux is not windows..nor vice-versa
http://www.michaelhorowitz.com/Linux.vs.Windows.html
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/a ... o_use.html

Many examples making the comparisons exist, even in this forum, and even in these posts here!
  • We can't persuade/convert change most windows OS user's viewpoint
    --we shouldn't even try, they are quite happy buying anti-virus, anti-spyware, and dealing with any critical updates that show up for their preferred OS
We can only point out that they are not really making a choice, despite Microsoft's latest win7 advertising campaigns
--it (the windows OS) comes with the PC

And so, no we shouldn't adapt to the consensus of windows OS users, who are using Linux, but want it to be windows
--that's been done before and destroyed a few companies, who thought that if they only worked like windows, users would flock to their OS instead, if it could be cheaper to use or own
  • Complete adaptation is death..
I am not an Apple OS-X fan either, I think it is way too much glimmer and not enough performance
Every time I try an Apple notebook at their Apple store, I find it slow. But I keep hearing the mantra, yes you can do it on windows, but it is easier on the MAC
  • I can't agree to that at all..
    --in fact I got stuck on the Ipad, when I picked an application and didn't see how to close it or get back to the main screen
--and I didn't have the instruction manual/quick guide available, and the sales reps were busy with other browsing (potential ?) customers
I do find their desktops, both cheaper (which isn't always the case in the PC world), and faster than their notebooks (Macpro etc), so it is a more pleasant experience
--however their mouse design still stinks
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rcwilson »

Sorry I have not even read all the stuff, but.
I have played with it on and off, and about to try again.

As far as im concerned its the file manager. Is it now fixed?
File manager needs to be easy to use with a right click menu of choices, yes sorry, just like power desk for windows.

That is the reason I always walked away, storage is my thing, have lots left and lots used. Looking after and moving, finding is the issue. This stuff needs to be easy to do and easily recognized.

Well anyway, other than that issue I always liked the open software. Its always been much more stable then windows for me anyway.

With windows I use a extensive backup and restore system stored on a file server with dvd backup. That works, however with IE running in the core and software can be installed from a web page even if the IE exe is not running, problems are frequent with my other users, and sometimes some fancy keyboard work from me when im on the bad sites.
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