Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Chat about Linux in general
Orang_Gila
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:50 pm

Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by Orang_Gila »

Just wanted to put some thoughts out there; this forum category is the closest fit for my topic but I don't have the time to "Chat" about it.

The following link is my personal critique of GNU/Linux. It is very critical of GNU and various open source organizations. I think it may be of some interest to members in this forum or anyone considering migrating from the Closed/Microsoft world to GNU/Linux.

http://members.shaw.ca/problem3/

Orang_Gila
melbo
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: WA, USA
Contact:

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by melbo »

I've read your article. I have to say that my journey has been nothing like yours and I use Windows XP, 7, Mac OS X and LMDE, among other test Linux distros. I have never spent even .5 hours on trying to get Flash to work on LMDE (or on any other Linux distro that i can think of...) Nor have I come close to the 10 hours a day for 9+ months trying to set up my systems. I think my current run of LMDE took me about 2 hours to tweak and get right.

I'm not a guru or a wizard but none of this has been difficult for me in the least. I have stable production systems that can do most anything I need although I still go to Win 7 (in virtualbox on LMDE) to run Adobe Premiere Pro when video editing.

I'll never claim that Linux is easier than Windows but I do not think its hard and have set others up and never had a call or email in the middle of the night asking for help.

You seem to be on a Crusade though, so I'm sure we/I can't change your course.
User avatar
OldManHook
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 500
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:57 am
Location: SomeWhere In The US of A

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by OldManHook »

Get a Life :idea:
If you used Linux as much as stated I'm sure you would have found something to work on your HW :shock:
Anyone who spend as much time as you said is just plain crazy :( :(
By your own accounting you could have got many copies of Windows 7,a few I5's 7's etc; Installed and made your life Better :(
Just wondering Do U work for MS...If you Don't they should hire you ..Pure FUD... :( :( :(
:lol: :lol: :lol: Learn How To Better Use Your TIME...Life is Short :idea:
"Be the change you want to see in the world"
Gandhi
/dev/urandom

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by /dev/urandom »

Freedom for Programmers NOT for Users
Precisely. I really wonder why users praise the freedom of the GNU ecosystem as they don't have any advantage of it.
/dev/urandom

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by /dev/urandom »

dalcde wrote:On what basis do you say that GIMP is inferior?
16-bit support.
dalcde wrote:GNU/Linux's utilities are certainly much better than Windows' one.
On what basis?
dalcde wrote:Office: Again, why is libreoffice/openoffice inferior to Microsoft Office?
This is not related to the chosen OS.
dalcde wrote:Windows always crashes.
No system crash for me in several years on 3 machines, hardware failures not counted. You fail.
dalcde wrote:1 No testing: we always have a lot of testing.
Why does every Ubuntu upgrade break something major then?
dalcde wrote:3 Basic stuff like video/drivers: they are well implemented in Mint and I have no problem installing with one click.
Given that proprietary video drivers make Mint non-free, that is.
dalcde wrote:All I (we?) use is gcc.
Good luck.
dalcde wrote:8kernel upgrades couldn't break your system since if something is wrong, you can choose to use the old one when you boot.
Not necessarily.
dalcde wrote:Again, different distros have different stabilities. Debian Stable doesn't have updates
It has.
dalcde wrote:You might want to read the definition of "free software".
So might you. The GPL is not free.
/dev/urandom

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by /dev/urandom »

dalcde wrote:GIMP 2.8 has 16-bit support.
Oops. My fault.
CMYK? Reasonable .psd (industry standard) support, including layers? Broken when I checked it last time...
dalcde wrote:Linux system utilities, run as root, give you true power to do anything on the computer. Windows' ones don't.
Not true since the Powershell anymore.
dalcde wrote:Linux's offices are inferior to Windows' ones. My point is that Linux has some that are better than the Windows' one.
There is no "Linux's office".
dalcde wrote:Tons of bsods for me.
Driver faults probably. Linux crashes its kernel, Windows shows a BSOD. How is a kernel panic better?
dalcde wrote:Maybe Windows like your hardware (I'm also aware that Linux crashes for some hardware, so I guess it's a draw?)
Yep.
dalcde wrote:You're not supposed to do so, as Clem has explained it in his tutorial. Do a fresh uprgade.
Oh, right, so "upgrading" means "breaking". How could I mix that up?
BTW, last Windows upgrade (from Vista to 7) went flawlessly without any breakage, so did my recent Fedora 16 -> 17 upgrade. No "fresh" update required.

Must be Ubuntu.
dalcde wrote:point is that we have one generally accepted compiler for each language
Which we have not. You might have missed recent LLVM/Clang development.
dalcde wrote:How about according to DFSG? It is free under that.
So your point is invalid, there is no "the definition of 'free software'". IMO, the GPL is not free. IYO, it is. So what?
User avatar
xenopeek
Level 25
Level 25
Posts: 25227
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:58 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by xenopeek »

Opinions clearly differ :D Can we leave it at that and move on? OP is gone already :wink: Let's go help some newbies or something 8)
Image
/dev/urandom

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by /dev/urandom »

One day newbies will read this thread, and it is better if they don't find any wrong information here then. :mrgreen:
RJim
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 9:49 pm

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by RJim »

As a new user to Linux myself, coming from Windows, and requiring graphics and video/sound editing for my job, I can say that I understand where the OP is coming from -- and honestly, any Windows to Linux convert who claims to not understand those feelings is lying! :)

The frustration comes from a lack of understanding of the different ideas surrounding the two OS cultures. Windows is designed to be easy and "just work", Linux is designed to be customizable and "whatever you can mold it into" (notice the you part there)... I knew this coming in, so I wasn't bothered by it.
The threads I have started here asking for help have largely gone unnoticed and unanswered, and that's fine... I just keep working on it when I can and chalk it up to a learning experience.

HOWEVER Remember that I knew about the different culture here coming in!

A Windows user is quite used to receiving priority support that comes from a paid software and warranty plans and maybe even subscription-based tech support!
A Windows user who is hooked by the Linux hype that "It is better than Windows at everything" may be inclined to jump right in without thinking twice, and then be shocked by the culture shift; and honestly we can not blame them for that. In-fact it is largely the fault of our fragmented community.

Half of our community are die-hard Linux nerds who can't stand newbies asking questions and get upset if they have to walk a new user through the process of compiling an app from source.

The other half of the community is preaching the superiority of Linux to everyone they can find, including the average Windows user who has never seen source code in their life or even used a command-line.

See the problem here?

I do not blame the OP, and his concerns are valid and need to be honestly looked at for Linux to be improved in the area of user support.

Just my opinion on this from a fellow newbie Linux user.

--Jim
/dev/urandom

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by /dev/urandom »

RJim wrote:Half of our community are die-hard Linux nerds who can't stand newbies asking questions and get upset if they have to walk a new user through the process of compiling an app from source.

The other half of the community is preaching the superiority of Linux to everyone they can find, including the average Windows user who has never seen source code in their life or even used a command-line.
The funny thing is that "the other half" largely consists of Linux users who have never seen source code in their life or even used a command-line. A bunch of Linux users who want to use Linux like others use Windows: A lot of clicking and a preinstalled and preconfigured GUI, done. They should stick to Windows IMNSHO.

I actually love to walk a new user through the process of compiling an app from source, because (to me) that involves reading. For some yet unknown reason the majority of Linux users is beginning to consider "RTFM!" a rude and not really helpful answer. Which is wrong. There is nothing more helpful than reading manuals/manpages or READMEs in order to understand what the hell is going on with $application. Users don't have an additional benefit from getting the manpage rephrased, they could as well read it themselves.

That might be a rather conservative approach but it kills the root of all evil (the users' lazyness), not its symptoms (the users' disinformation). Highly recommended.
RJim
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 9:49 pm

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by RJim »

/dev/urandom wrote: The funny thing is that "the other half" largely consists of Linux users who have never seen source code in their life or even used a command-line. A bunch of Linux users who want to use Linux like others use Windows: A lot of clicking and a preinstalled and preconfigured GUI, done. They should stick to Windows IMNSHO.

I actually love to walk a new user through the process of compiling an app from source, because (to me) that involves reading. For some yet unknown reason the majority of Linux users is beginning to consider "RTFM!" a rude and not really helpful answer. Which is wrong. There is nothing more helpful than reading manuals/manpages or READMEs in order to understand what the hell is going on with $application. Users don't have an additional benefit from getting the manpage rephrased, they could as well read it themselves.

That might be a rather conservative approach but it kills the root of all evil (the users' lazyness), not its symptoms (the users' disinformation). Highly recommended.
Well honestly I really don't see why end-users should not be able to run Linux in the same manner as Windows or any other OS.
Notice that I said in the same manner and not "exactly like."

The specific of that statement being that end-users should not generally need to muck around with lines of code just to keep their hardware from overheating after a base install, to use an example scenario that I and others have encountered.

I do agree with you that a user's general aversion to reading and searching causes them more trouble than they would have if they would try to help themselves a bit more.
Most of my problems encountered I have ended up solving myself... except for those that require large source-code fixes. I am not a programmer and have no desire to become one; but I did report the problem to the developers responsible and am still searching for fixes on my own.

My belief always has been that a user should help themselves as much as possible when a problem arises... but at the same time, a user should not be required to be able to write their own drivers or re-write source code to have their system working properly. That's just a flaw of the system itself. That's like expecting every person who drives a car to be able to build it from scratch.

The beauty of Linux is that all the source code is there for those who want it, but no one should ever need it if they don't want it.
/dev/urandom

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by /dev/urandom »

RJim wrote:The beauty of Linux is that all the source code is there for those who want it
Not since they introduced binary parts.
Orang_Gila
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:50 pm

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by Orang_Gila »

My partner's current issues on her 64bit system:
  • * pdf download in Iceweasel 10 froze computer
    * inserting DVD froze computer while running Iceweasel 10
    * externel usb mouse is randomly not responding
    * k3b crashing
    * kmail: no message bodies if IMAP emails have attachments
    * minitube no longer functional with Debian Wheezy and phonon-backends
    * Iceweasel and Adobe-plugin: flash image bleed thru tab layers, documents and file manager windows
    * Iceweasel and Adobe-plugin: missing colour (red?) from RGB range
Example of a very basic feature missing from GIMP that Adobe Photoshop 10 has:
When trimming a larger resolution image in Photoshop 10, the user can simply predefine the size (height x width; similar to GIMP) but at the same time they can also choose from the predefined bar the resolution (i.e. 96 dpi) to be used once the area chosen has been committed with a mouse click. That means once the area selected manually by the user has been committed, the newly created trimmed image will already be at the desired resolution (eg. 300 dpi to 96 dpi). This might seem like a minor thing to some, but to anyone who uses graphical applications like this for a lot of manual edits (eg. web authoring) this is quite handy and saves about 4 manual mouse clicks per image edit. In GNU the only other option would be a "convert" bulk images through a terminal console.

Example of a basic function that is missing in both Open Office and Libre Office:
When the user selects a cell in a Microsoft Excel document and then chooses a new font colour using the font colour icon, the font colour icon then shows the user's last manual colour selection. The next time they select cells on the same document, all they have to do is simply click on the font colour icon without moving their mouse to bring down the colour selections (note: this works in a Libre Office Write document). A single click in Excel automatically changes the colour to the last chosen colour. I've never been able to get this to work the same in Open Office or Libre Office. This can be a pain when working in a spreadsheet where using multiple colour shades to denote different areas is important. I have to refer back to a previously altered cell so I can reproduce the same colour for similar cells in the document.

RJim is right about being "A Windows user who is hooked by the Linux hype". That's exactly what happened to me 18 months ago when I came across Ubuntu and the Free Software Foundation's high ideals (which I still think are very worthwhile).
RJim
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 9:49 pm

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by RJim »

@Orang_Gila
I wish I could offer some advice, but I also do not have that much experience. And I have not encountered any of the issues you are describing.

In regards to LibreOffice... I actually like the way it handles colors better than the way MSOffice does... Many times I have wanted to see what color the selected object was, but instead it was showing my last picked color instead, which was unintuitive for me.

The only issue I am having with LibreOffice is it lagging badly after a suspend/resume cycle on my laptop. Other than that it has been great, and actually impressed my colleagues at my job. :)

--JIm
User avatar
Goro Daimon
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:30 pm

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by Goro Daimon »

LOL! Orang_Gila you're right!
zeke
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:34 pm

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by zeke »

I admit I didn't have the patience to read the whole op, but I'm really mystified the experiences and analyses described there. I installed Mint on two home computers about two years ago when I faced the fact that I would have to pay $200+ for two windows 7 licenses, and I've been extremely pleased w/ the results. I can't say that I've found linux software in every category that equals or surpasses that available for windows, but I've been able to find software (most, but not all, free or open source) that meets the needs of our household. I've also been extremely pleased as far as the ease of use and maintenance of the system itself. Installation was surprisingly almost effortless. I really like the update system, which handles most applications I use as well as the system software. Updates are generally quick to install, and virtually never require a reboot. I also like the way that Mint handles the elevation of user privileges for performing system updates. As far as I can tell there is certainly less support for hardware peripherals under linux, for obvious reasons that vendors have to concentrate on the bigger markets. I had difficulty getting a Wacom graphics tablet working w/ Mint 9, as well as a Canon network printer (I resorted to buying the Turboprint printer driver, which is excellent), and my computers would not wake from sleep w/ the keyboard without manually editing a configuration file. However, there are almost always available solutions that can be found on the web, usually with quite easy-to-follow instructions, but one often has to filter out the obsolete or just plain wrong information, and I can't say that it doesn't help to have some technical ability. On the other hand, linux also seems to be improving all the time. I recently installed Mint 13 and all of my problems w/ hardware peripherals went away with that release, except for the Canon network printer, and for that problem I found a very easy solution on Ubuntu forums that was linked to by someone on the Mint forums (Of course there is also the Turboprint solution). Obviously different people have different needs and expectations, but I wouldn't be scared away from linux, and particular Mint, by the imposing looking but really not generally applicable material in the op of this thread.
Skara Brae
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 47
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:45 am

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by Skara Brae »

/dev/urandom wrote:
dalcde wrote:Windows always crashes.
No system crash for me in several years on 3 machines, hardware failures not counted. You fail.
Pardon me, but here I just have to jump in.

Let me first say that I am no programmer or anything of that kind. I am only a computer user with a lot of experience in "using" computers. I have used almost all Windows versions on (let me count) 6 computers (desktops, laptops), and that does not include other people's Windows-based computers. And it is my experience (as, I repeat, "only" a computer user) that Microsoft Windows (insert any version) is the most unreliable thing that I have ever worked with in my entire life. OS X is way better, as is Linux (Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Linux Mint).

Every time again I go :shock: when someone in all honesty and seriousness says that Microsoft Windows is a good OS ("good" in many meanings).
Do they never have program crashes?
Do they never have system crashes or BSoD's?
Do they never lose time, because Windows does not let them do what they want?
Do they never get viruses or other malware?

The times I had those in OS X and in Linux I can count on one hand.

I have Windows Vista Home Premium on an Core i5-based computer and a Radeon HD 6870 of less than 1 year old (so, practically still brand new). It is the fastest hardware that I have ever had, but any other, older computer that I have boots faster than this computer. Can you explain this any other way than by agreeing that Windows is crap? (And no, it is not only Vista: I rather work with Vista than with Win 7, let alone Win 8 from what I see online).

/dev/urandom,
when was the last time you had problems with any Windows computer, and what was that problem?
I compare Windows with OS X (I have a "1st Gen" iMac G5) and with Linux (Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Linux Mint), and I can _only_ conclude that Windows is total crap (in many meanings). And I repeat that I say this not as a programmer or anything, but as a plain and simple computer user.

Windows, OS X and Linux are the 3 largest desktop OS'es, I think I may say. And of the three, Windows is the biggest rubbish that I have ever worked with (If it is not, then why have all the Windows versions given me so many problems, and that on different computers? It's not that I am too much of an idiot to work with Windows, is it? :P )

If it was not for the CorelDRAW's Graphics Suite, I would have gotten rid of MS Windows in 2004. (Hey, I should check out Wine.). Some day, I will dump Windows once and for all. I don't know when yet, but that day will come. I just know it...

Alright, now I am getting off my soap box.
Codename "PUMA": Intel Core i5-3450 // Gigabyte GA-H77-D3H // 1 x 4 GB DDR3-RAM // Gigabyte Geforce GTX 460 // WD Caviar Blue 500 GB (S-ATA) // Samsung WriteMaster DVD-rw // Aopen QF50C PC case
--
Registered Linux User #495429
/dev/urandom

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by /dev/urandom »

Skara Brae wrote:Do they never have program crashes?
Do they never have system crashes or BSoD's?
Do they never lose time, because Windows does not let them do what they want?
Do they never get viruses or other malware?
None of them are related to Windows, except BSODs.
But don't think your holy Linux is unbreakable, does never crash, has no malware etc.
You do know about the several daemon exploits published regularly, right? There is no "stable and secure OS".

And Mint rarely does what I want it to either. :mrgreen:
Skara Brae wrote:/dev/urandom,
when was the last time you had problems with any Windows computer, and what was that problem?
One or two months ago, a boot sequence error due to a malicious update process.
Again something that can happen with every OS I know.
Skara Brae wrote:and I can _only_ conclude that Windows is total crap (in many meanings). And I repeat that I say this not as a programmer or anything, but as a plain and simple computer user.
So is every OS in one or another way.
Skara Brae wrote:Windows, OS X and Linux are the 3 largest desktop OS'es
Don't compare them. They all have different audiences. Linux is not better, it is different.
Skara Brae wrote:If it is not, then why have all the Windows versions given me so many problems, and that on different computers? It's not that I am too much of an idiot to work with Windows, is it? :P
It is.
At work I have to work with a couple of Ubuntu servers. Don't think I have ever seen an upgrade that did not break several things. FUBAR. Good thing that servers don't need graphic card drivers, so the issues were less severe than they usually are. Given that the regular Mint is based upon Ubuntu, figure yourself what that means.
It's not that I am too much of an idiot to work with Ubuntu, is it?
zeke
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:34 pm

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by zeke »

I'm often disappointed (I almost wrote surprised, but I'm not) by the lack of perspective I see in "discussions" like this one. Skara Brae: WIndows is a product that has been used successfully by millions for many years. Do you really think your experience with it is remotely typical? Likewise, OP Orang_Gila: Your claim to have put in over 9 months @ 10 hrs/day to maintain a couple of home computers is almost physically impossible for anyone with an actual life. If that experience was typical, nobody, and I mean nobody, would be using Linux. I use Linux on my home computers because there are things about it that I like, and things about Microsoft and Windows that I don't like, but seriously, please try to see something between black and white.
Orang_Gila
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:50 pm

Re: Closed/Microsoft vs GNU/Linux Assessment

Post by Orang_Gila »

zeke wrote: I admit I didn't have the patience to read the whole op,...
zeke wrote:Likewise, OP Orang_Gila: Your claim to have put in over 9 months @ 10 hrs/day to maintain a couple of home computers is almost physically impossible for anyone with an actual life.
You are twisting my words. If you had properly read my report, you would have seen that I did not state that it took me "9 months @ 10 hrs/day" to "maintain" our computers.

From that report:
"This equated in my circumstance to roughly 2771 hours of diagnostics and learning to move from the world of Closed/Microsoft to GNU/Linux. In other words, roughly 10 hours/day, every day for roughly 9.1 months."

"I chose Debian as my foundation after trying some 26 distributions (Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, CentOS, "Libre", etc...)"

"If I hit the wall again and find myself spending more that 2.5 hours/week for 2 PC - diagnostics, learning & maintenance, then the experiment ends."


I also never stated that it was a continous block of time, thus the word "equated".

From that report:
"I started this adventure around the beginning of August 2010 and my current estimates used in this assessment are from August 1, 2010 to May 12, 2012."

Currently I am keeping a very detailed record of my time (note: I am NOT including forum discussions like this in that data).

In the last 27 days I have wasted:
  • 14.4 hours.....KDE-PIM issues (kmail, korgac, akonadi)
  • 26.9 hours.....Researching alternative PIM solutions (eg. evolution, osmo, tkreminder, claws-mail, icedove, iceowl, etc..) and then migrating our data out of KDE into the mozilla environment (Icedove, Iceowl) which has the beauty of being cross platform. This allows me to use similar software on other family members' computers that are microsoft based as well.
  • 20.0 hours.....Other issues
This data represents 15.9 hours/week, but of course I'm assuming that things will run a little more smoothly (maybe) now that I've bailed out of KDE's PIM packages altogether. If nothing major comes up by Dec 17 then the shreadsheet calculation will probably work out out to an average around 2 hours/week - only time will tell...
Post Reply

Return to “Chat about Linux”