What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

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wanderer7
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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by wanderer7 »

endafresh wrote:What am I dissatisfied with?
Arrogance. Sheer 'computer geek' arrogance by most of the Linux community.

Linux 'pros' seem to give the entire computer geek community a bad name by insisting on obscure/complex systems of engagement (use the console herp derp!!! IZ SO EZ!!!) instead of implementing a far more user-friendly solution.
Goodness forbid they shove their egos up their asses and swallow their pride to allow everyone who IS NOT a computer wizard to be able to use GNU/Linux in day to day activities. If you want your obscure console crap then there's another distro for that; so knock yourselves out.

This crap is why I keep Linux Mint on my laptop for limited uses and keep Win7 x64 as my main. I'm honestly considering going to Ubuntu instead (or moving 'up' to Debian) just so that I don't have to deal with this toxic of a 'community'.

I find it amusing that these forums don't even have something as basic as a secured https login. The hell are you all still living in the 1990s or some unicorns? >_>

TLDR: RTFM
-Terrible interface design (no unified control panel because reasons)
-Terrible lack of user-friendly design mechanics (still need the console for some of the most basic actions)
-Repositories are a mess and disgustingly out of date for even well-maintained ones (Firefox in particular; y u no backport security patches)
-This community moreso than any others should be focused on making Linux accessible to the masses yet fails spectacularly in nearly every possible way.
-No secured forum login like we're living in the damn 1990s.

- Unified control panel? Who wants that? I want choice and different options.
- When someone posts here console commands, it's not because of arrogance. GNOME, Cinnamon, MATE, KDE, Unity, LXDE, Xfce, Enlightenment - I don't know which of these DE-es or versions you're using and even if I knew, maybe I'm not using it myself. So, how could I give you GUI instructions? Instead, people post console commands here and a terminal is a terminal regardless of your distro, DE and version.
- Yes, repositories need to be updated more often. I agree.
- Welcome to the free software world. This is GNU/Linux. We don't do marketing or advertising. If people start using Mint, great. If not, no problem. We don't set goals to ourselves. We just use the system we like. No one is forced to join. If someone doesn't like something, one can always make his/her own fork or a distro.

No offence, but your post sounds like: "why Linux Mint isn't Windows, why do I have to learn something new?"
GNU/Linux distros, including Mint, aren't bug/problem free. We all know that. If you found a bug, tell the community.
But arrogance isn't a bug, especially when it doesn't exist.

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by Previous1 »

Unified control panel? Who wants that? I want choice and different options.
I think what endafresh means is something like YaST in openSUSE. I'd suggest him to try it out. He shouldn't even think on using Debian...
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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by endafresh »

What I mean is ONE control panel for 'Settings' instead of having them strewn all about in 3-4 separate control panels.
There's one trick in Windows to do the 'Godmode Control Panel' that has every possible setting you could want to ever tweak in one place; with a GUI to boot.

So why not have that type of option for people who just want to find something?
It isn't 'why isn't this like Windows'. It is 'why isn't this easier to use for people who are NOT tech-saavy so that I can get them OFF of Windows?'

The responses to my post merely prove my point. The whole 'shut up and just use the terminal herp derp' attitude. Exactly my point.
There needs to be a GUI-based alternative available to allow people to have one place they can CONTROL their system from (that doesn't involve typing in the terminal like some hack from the 90s).

I know you love your terminal. Congratulations, but the rest of us non-techies here in 2014 would love to have a GUI to go along with it.
Until that happens, Linux Mint (and Linux in general) will be bastardized and commercialized by corporate entities like Google into half-baked yet consumer-friendly versions. Android. Chrome. ChromeOS.

That's your future. If you want to remain relevant you adapt or fall back to being yet another geek-only tool to fiddle around with.
It wouldn't be difficult to get an Indiegogo or Kickstarter campaign running to not only bring attention to Linux Mint but get some much-needed donations to keep things running smoothly.

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by austin.texas »

endafresh,
It is good that you are interested in how Mint can be improved.
What is your plan to foster that improvement? Programming? Testing? Donations?
Please donate to Mint's development an amount equal to the amount you have donated to Windows.
Thank you.
http://www.linuxmint.com/donors.php
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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by Cammo »

endafresh wrote:'shut up and just use the terminal herp derp'
Haha, I loved that. Mind if I add it to my sig, endafresh?

Also, before the flame war escalates again, I'd just like to know what exactly it is that you're not happy with, OS-wise. From what I gather from your posts, you don't like computer geeks and don't like your GUI. If you want more options, may I suggest the KDE version? I understand that one has options galore. Is there a specific option you're looking for? Maybe someone can help you.
endafresh wrote:Here's how you install Mac OS X. [and Win 7]
-insert DVD
-Click 'Install'
-Follow prompts
-Done!
Here's how you install Mint 16:
- Insert DVD
- Select Start Linux
- Click Install Linux (craftily hidden away on the desktop)
- Follow prompts
- Done!

I'm certainly no tech wizard myself, but it doesn't seem THAT hard. Specifically, what do you find difficult?

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by wanderer7 »

endafresh wrote:What I mean is ONE control panel for 'Settings' instead of having them strewn all about in 3-4 separate control panels.
There's one trick in Windows to do the 'Godmode Control Panel' that has every possible setting you could want to ever tweak in one place; with a GUI to boot.

So why not have that type of option for people who just want to find something?
It isn't 'why isn't this like Windows'. It is 'why isn't this easier to use for people who are NOT tech-saavy so that I can get them OFF of Windows?'

The responses to my post merely prove my point. The whole 'shut up and just use the terminal herp derp' attitude. Exactly my point.
There needs to be a GUI-based alternative available to allow people to have one place they can CONTROL their system from (that doesn't involve typing in the terminal like some hack from the 90s).

I know you love your terminal. Congratulations, but the rest of us non-techies here in 2014 would love to have a GUI to go along with it.
Until that happens, Linux Mint (and Linux in general) will be bastardized and commercialized by corporate entities like Google into half-baked yet consumer-friendly versions. Android. Chrome. ChromeOS.

That's your future. If you want to remain relevant you adapt or fall back to being yet another geek-only tool to fiddle around with.
It wouldn't be difficult to get an Indiegogo or Kickstarter campaign running to not only bring attention to Linux Mint but get some much-needed donations to keep things running smoothly.
Fair enough. Now I understand, endafresh. But then again, there are more than 300 distros with various desktop environments and some of them are for "techies" exactly - Kali Linux, for example. When Linus himself wrote the kernel, I bet he wasn't even planning to make it popular.
This is the story of Unix vs DOS/MS-DOS (later Windows) - Unix was always more difficult, but more secure and stable as well. DOS/Windows were created for home users and they were/are always more user-friendly.
My point is that traditionally Unix-like OS-es, including GNU/Linux, were for geeks indeed (and written by geeks).
The first distro which started making things easier for non-techies was Ubuntu. Ubuntu and Ubuntu-based distros are still the most user-friendly ones. Today we see only the first steps of GNU/Linux towards usability and user-friendliness.
Google has more money, resources and more motivation (their motivation is money again) to make consumer-friendly versions in a short period of time. Hopefully, some of the GNU/Linux distros will also achieve that in the nearest future. 3 distros that I would recommend to an ex-windows user are: 1. Linux Mint, 2. Ubuntu, 3. Netrunner. If Mint doesn't work for you for some reason, try the other two. And also, post your ideas on this forum, tell us what can be done to make Mint easier to use.
Last edited by wanderer7 on Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by Brahim Salem »

I don't think that there is any OS or distro as simmple as Linux Mint. I have introduced it to half-illeterate people who have never touched a PC in therir life and they got along like Vodka and Red Bull :lol: :lol: The problem is with those who are used to Windows and refuse change :D

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by austin.texas »

endafresh wrote:
austin.texas wrote:*wall of text snip*
Here's how you install Windows 7.
-Insert DVD that you downloaded/burned from official M$ website.
-Click 'Install'
-Follow prompts
-Done! It'll even automatically do the Edits of BCD to modify the bootloader without additional intervention.

Here's how you install Mac OS X.
-insert DVD
-Click 'Install'
-Follow prompts
-Done!

So why the hell is Linux Mint (supposedly the 'user friendly' Linux distro) so far behind? Why? >_>
Interesting. Please describe how the procedure that you snipped (booting an iso from the hard drive with no DVD or USB) would be done from within Windows.
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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by kukamuumuka »

The most irritating thing about linuxes overall is making less usable programs like before eg. gnome2 vs gnome3. Also some applications seems to denigrate, because there is less options for user interaction.

For adding dissatisfied, I could make a new remastered linux .. :lol:

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by Previous1 »

The most irritating thing about linuxes overall is making less usable programs like before eg. gnome2 vs gnome3. Also some applications seems to denigrate, because there is less options for user interaction.
+1. Instead of refining existing systems, the practice is to start fresh and break stuff in new and exiting ways (systemd, pulseaudio, udisks2, etc ...)
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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by austin.texas »

Previous1 wrote:+1. Instead of refining existing systems, the practice is to start fresh and break stuff in new and exiting ways (systemd, pulseaudio, udisks2, etc ...)
That is funny! :lol: :lol:
Debugging: the procedure for removing bugs.
Programming: the procedure for creating bugs.

If at first you don't succeed, call it version 1.0
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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by woodsman »

And also, post your ideas on this forum, tell us what can be done to make Mint easier to use.
I am a long-time Linux user, but I am VERY new to Debian and Mint. Please let me play newbie here.

* Where does one file bug reports?

* What is the preferred method to suggest improvements? (That the developers actually read.)

* How does one become involved with testing for the next LMDE Update Pack?

* What is the proper way to contribute to Mint documentation, such as the user guide?

---------

I am involved in a new small business where we have decided to use LMDE with customers who want to migrate from XP. We are still fine-tuning our process and installation tweaks, but I have noticed a few things that could make Mint more palatable to XP converts.

For example, ignore the terminal. I have been using the command line since the early 1980s. I pop open the terminal a couple of dozen times in a typical day on my computer. I don't think twice about using a terminal and I write lots of little scripts that I run from the command line. The typical person coming from Windows? The terminal is frightening. Really. So one of our customization tweaks for our customers is removing the terminal buttons from panels and menu Favorites. For them the terminal remains available, but "hidden" in the menu system. Long-term geeks and Linux users will quickly add the terminal to their panel, keyboard shortcuts, and menu Favorites, so being "hidden" is not a big deal.

Likewise with IRC apps. Although Windows users might be familiar with IM, generally they are not familiar with IRC. To them, IM is socializing and IRC is a geek thing --- if they have heard of IRC.

An idea: Better consistency between the Mate and Cinnamon Control Centers. For example, the Cinnamon Control Center has a System Info applet and the Mate version does not.

Similarly, Cinnamon has a startup sound and Mate does not. Inconsistent.

Along that same thought, I am puzzled that both Mate and Cinnamon are not packaged together in one Live DVD. I have installed both desktops on my laptop and am not experiencing any problems. The Mint web servers could save some bandwidth by packaging both in one DVD.

Oops: Mint does not install a clipboard manager. Although I now am using Mate and Cinnamon daily, I am a long-time user of KDE3 and Trinity, along with the occasional KDE4. The Klipper applet is standard. I reacted like the proverbial deer in the headlight beams the first time I went to use the clipboard manager and realized none was installed.

Update Manager: the default is to check every 15 minutes. Checking once a day is sufficient.

Speaking of updates, the Mint Software Manager has been buggy for me. Often the installations halt in the middle. Often when I double-click on a package nothing happens. I think sometimes the reason is the package is 32-bit and I am on a 64-bit system, but there should be some kind of feedback. Also the Software Manager is horribly slow to open, even on my dual core system. There is no launch feedback to keep the user informed while opening so slow. The synaptic package manager has been solid as a rock. I would prefer our customers use the Software Manager but I am hesitant because of the bugginess.

The installer: That the virtualbox guest additions are available in the Live DVD is really helpful, but the installation does not remove the virtualbox guest additions when installed to a physical machine.

The installer: When installing Mint to a new second disk rather than repartitioning the existing disk, where to install GRUB is not obvious to non technical people. They do not understand MBRs. Some instructions in the installer to install GRUB to sda rather than sdb would be helpful to such people. Or just clarify "Install GRUB to MBR" would be helpful.

The installer: When installing Mint and retaining a Windows partition for dual booting, a copy of the original MBR should be saved to /boot/xp_mbr_image.bin. I realize the hope is the user never returns to Windows but that is not always the case. After installation, would be nice if a copy of the new mbr was saved too, such as /boot/mint_mbr_image.bin. That way when dual booters play the horrible game of reinstalling Windows, they have a quick way to restore their Mint MBR.

The installer: The Time and Date section offers no opportunity to set the hardware clock to LOCAL rather than UTC. This has to be done manually after installation by editing /etc/adjtime.

The installer: Left-handed mouse users have long been ignored. I have yet to run across an installer that asks users whether they would like to swap the mouse buttons when creating the default user account. Would be nice if that was the very first question of the installer and a dialog appeared on the desktop of the Live DVD.

GRUB: That two-liner message when the system boots, "Welcome to GRUB!" is, um, dumb. Windows converts look at things like that and mumble.

GRUB: Information like "on /dev/sda1" is geeky and superfluous. Frightens Windows converts. These people don't want to be reminded they are using a computer.

Probably a bug report: Plymouth does not play well on my systems. First, the splash itself is inconsistent. A couple of times during booting the splash disappears and I see stdout. When I logout to return to the DM I see stdout. When shutting down I can flip a coin to predict whether the splash will remain or disappear to display stdout. Doesn't bother me --- but is unprofessional looking. Windows users are accustomed to seeing splash and nothing but splash. These interruptions to stdout create the impression the system is broken.

Plymouth raises havoc with the keyboard shortcuts to toggle between multiple users (Ctrl+Alt+Fx). The shortcuts should always work in tandem with the login order. Ctrl+Alt+F7 should be used to toggle to the first user, Ctrl+Alt+F8 the second user, Ctrl+Alt+F9 the third user, etc. Yet that is not how the system works. I haven't yet figured out the pattern of how those shortcuts get assigned. My solution is to edit the boot options to not use the splash at all. But guess what? All of that stdout frightens Windows converts.

I have experienced the black screen of death when logging out. My solution is to add nomodeset to the boot options.

Probably a bug report: In LMDE Mate, press Alt+F1 and the Mate menu appears (wherever the mouse pointer is resting) rather than the Mint Menu opening from the panel menu button. Might make sense to us geeks but inconsistent. Oddly, in Cinnamon Alt+F1 invokes the workspace switcher and not the menu. Coming from a KDE background, this different usage of Alt+F1 is inconsistent as well as inconsistent with Mate.

For Windows converts: I am a tad surprised no games are preinstalled. How are they going to play Solitaire or Freecell?

Likewise with gufw. Should be preinstalled. Even the "notoriously insecure" Windows has a GUI firewall tool.

Cross-platform apps: Would be really helpful if the installer detected existing user profiles on the Windows partition and copied them to the user's new Mint account, such as Firefox, Thunderbird, Chrome/Chromium, LibreOffice, GIMP, etc.

Services: rpcbind, nmbd, smbd are enabled by default. I don't know why since Mint seems focused on single users.

Caribou: No description available.

Gedit: The menu entry is void of an app description similar to all other menu entries. I edit that menu entry to 'Text Editor'. Likewise with gThumb. To a Windows convert, "What is a gThumb?"

Network Manager: The default DHCP is fine, but sure would be nice when the initial connection fails to then ask users whether they are using static IP addresses and when they respond affirmatively, present a dialog to configure a static IP address.

As already noted by the poll for this thread, automatic major updates for certain applications would be an improvement. For LMDE I am aware that doing so is based on Debian Testing, but some apps such as Firefox, Thunderbird, and LibreOffice do not depend on Debian Testing. They could be updated within a week or so. I would like to see a Quarterly Schedule for LMDE Update Packs. For example, both Mate and Cinnamon have been updated since releasing the 201403 LMDE DVD, both with nice improvements. I realize the recent Mate and Cinnamon updates require underlying system updates too, and that all has to be tested, but a quarterly release schedule for Update Packs seems sane to me.

A general suggestion to anybody wanting to improve Mint, especially to lure Windows users: spend a day in a cube farm with Windows workers. You probably will be shocked to learn how little they know about computers --- and how little they care. Most of them are task workers. They learn a task and seldom anything more. To them the desktop is only a portal to their tasks. That is why they have three dozen desktop shortcuts rather than use the menu. Applets? Desklets? Terminals? Cool screen savers? No clue. Many of them do not even know the basic keyboard shortcuts of Ctrl+X, Ctrl+C, and Ctrl+V.

Another suggestion: spend time observing non technical users with Mint. Geek feedback from tech savvy users is not the same. I don't think many tech savvy users realize how much non tech users struggle with computers. :)

I hope this post helps! :)

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by woodsman »

One more suggestion: Both Firefox and Thunderbird default to checking for updates. Seems to me that automatic checks will conflict with controlled updates through the package manager. Perhaps the defaults should be to disable automatic update checks.

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by isaach »

Having chosen other, I need to specify what my biggest dissatisfaction with Mint is: lack of in-place upgrades for the distribution that work well. This is especially problematic with Olivia and Petra since they're under the 9 month release policy Ubuntu recently switched to which means that you have to upgrade every cycle or end up without updates. That's more problematic for Mint since, unlike Ubuntu, in-place upgrades don't work that well and aren't recommended.

This isn't really a big deal. I stuck with Nadia so there's only going to be a brief window in which my system is unsupported before I can install Qiana. I understand that future Mint releases will be based on Trusty, not on whatever Uber Ungulate, Verisimilitudinous Vole, or whatever. So the problem is less severe that it otherwise would have been (even then I'd just have only used LTS releases from now on). But I think that's still my greatest dissatisfaction.

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by endafresh »

It seems I was too 'harsh' in my previous posts. Disregard what I said. Enjoy your LM geek tools. Take care.

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by austin.texas »

woodsman wrote:I am a long-time Linux user, but I am VERY new to Debian and Mint. Please let me play newbie here.
* Where does one file bug reports?
* What is the preferred method to suggest improvements? (That the developers actually read.)
* How does one become involved with testing for the next LMDE Update Pack?
* What is the proper way to contribute to Mint documentation, such as the user guide?
...I hope this post helps! :)
That is a very impressive evaluation you posted, and I agree with a large portion of it.
I would like to see some of these things discussed, and I think your thoughts and questions merit a separate post. In this thread it has become lost in the multi-dimensional conversation.

If you’re tempted to join the team, don’t hesitate to follow our development on http://github.com/linuxmint and come and chat with the developers at #linuxmint-dev (irc.spotchat.org).
by xenopeek
If you have a bug, that is if you can show in the source code where it is wrong, then you can report it on Launchpad. Most likely you were sent here not just because you are using Linux Mint but because you didn't actually have a bug to report.

Linux Mint's Launchpad page is here: https://launchpad.net/linuxmint. It's not used much these days as users have unfortunately used it as a support channel so any bug reports are snowed under.

If you have a bug in one of the Linux Mint developed programs, that is one of these https://github.com/linuxmint, then you can report that bug on GitHub there. Bugs for programs not developed at Linux Mint should better be reported to the maintainer of the package or to the developer of the program. In many cases the Ubuntu maintainers are the maintainers for a package and the package details also list an Ubuntu Launchpad page for reporting bugs. You can report bugs there, just make sure you clearly indicate the version of the package and the Ubuntu package base from which you are using it (you can see yours here: http://www.linuxmint.com/oldreleases.php).
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... 1&p=742466
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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by Relative »

Just upgraded from 16 to 17 Mint MATE 64-bit. Ran into one of my gripes. I forgot to write down all the settings for the various printers available to me. Had to go through it all from scratch, getting other PCs powered up so I could access their printer and configure it.

Why can't CUPS (note this is not just Mint) store configuration info in the /home directory (usually not overwritten) somewhere so it is automatically configured on a new install with all the printer info?

...or am I missing something?

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by simonbrown »

austin.texas wrote:
woodsman wrote:I am a long-time Linux user, but I am VERY new to Debian and Mint. Please let me play newbie here.
* Where does one file bug reports?
* What is the preferred method to suggest improvements? (That the developers actually read.)
* How does one become involved with testing for the next LMDE Update Pack?
* What is the proper way to contribute to Mint documentation, such as the user guide?
...I hope this post helps! :)
That is a very impressive evaluation you posted, and I agree with a large portion of it.
I would like to see some of these things discussed, and I think your thoughts and questions merit a separate post. In this thread it has become lost in the multi-dimensional conversation.

If you’re tempted to join the team, don’t hesitate to follow our development on http://github.com/linuxmint and come and chat with the developers at #linuxmint-dev (irc.spotchat.org).
by xenopeek
If you have a bug, that is if you can show in the source code where it is wrong, then you can report it on Launchpad. Most likely you were sent here not just because you are using Linux Mint but because you didn't actually have a bug to report.

Linux Mint's Launchpad page is here: https://launchpad.net/linuxmint. It's not used much these days as users have unfortunately used it as a support channel so any bug reports are snowed under.

If you have a bug in one of the Linux Mint developed programs, that is one of these https://github.com/linuxmint, then you can report that bug on GitHub there. Bugs for programs not developed at Linux Mint should better be reported to the maintainer of the package or to the developer of the program. In many cases the Ubuntu maintainers are the maintainers for a package and the package details also list an Ubuntu Launchpad page for reporting bugs. You can report bugs there, just make sure you clearly indicate the version of the package and the Ubuntu package base from which you are using it (you can see yours here: http:simple //www.linuxmint.com/oldreleases.php).
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... 1&p=742466
100% agree - apparently simple things like how to report bugs are completely obscure to the newcomer. These things need to be made clear in a very obvious place, like a top level page on the main website.

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by woodsman »

100% agree - apparently simple things like how to report bugs are completely obscure to the newcomer. These things need to be made clear in a very obvious place, like a top level page on the main website.
I like the way Trinity and KDE are designed to handle the problem. In all apps there is a direct link in the Help menu to report bugs.

The crash handler also has a direct link to file crash reports.

As the Help menu is shared code among all apps, implemeting such a solution requires new code to be written once only.

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Re: What are you most dissatisfied with in Linux Mint?

Post by woodsman »

...or am I missing something?
I don't think so. Any update process at any level or sophisticiation should preserve config files, at least when the config files are different than the previous default settings. User settings can be preserved with a separate partition for /home, but /etc does not have that luxury.

The fact that printer settings require root privileges in a Linux system is a point of sore contention among certain users, especially single and home users. The topic was the focus of one of Linus' rants a couple of years ago when his daughter was not able to configure a printer on her laptop.

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