[Solved] How to update Libre

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Pjotr
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Pjotr » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:30 am

It looks like things have improved in 18.x; as far as I can see, it's only for 17.x that Mint maintains its "own" Libre Office:
http://packages.linuxmint.com/pool/impo ... breoffice/

.... and that apparently got its latest update in November, 2015. Which is not so good. If I were a 17.3 user like you, I would report that as a serious bug.

But in Mint 18.x, you apparently get your LO straight from Ubuntu, which shifts the security maintenance burden to the Ubuntu devs. They are active:
http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/m ... breoffice/

Finally time to upgrade to 18.2, Cosmo.? :mrgreen:
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:59 am

Pierre wrote:ie: that Libre Office - update to 5.3.4, would most likely appear in the LM19x series of the Project.

That would be the contrary of an enhancement. Even the LO 5.4 branch will reach its end of life already in summer 2018. (Currently the LO release plan ends at this point.)

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:20 am

Pjotr wrote:It looks like things have improved in 18.x; as far as I can see, it's only for 17.x that Mint maintains its "own" Libre Office:
http://packages.linuxmint.com/pool/impo ... breoffice/

Are you surprised about that? I am not.

Ubuntu tells everybody on the front page, that their LTS has 5 years support. But this is - to say it clearly - a trap. What gets supported for 5 years is only the minor part of the version, which gets maintained directly from Canonical. All the rest - the majority -, which gets maintained by the so called Masters of the Universe (MOTU) get - at best - 3 years support. Do you remember, that we discussed this 1 or 2 years ago? As said: at best and if the users are lucky. Your example demonstrates, that for Ubuntu 3 years are sometimes already after 1 year over.

So creating a bug report about it would produce nothing than wasted time. The amount of wasted time with reports, which I created with every thinkable detail, but are nor fixed (some of them after 1 year) is already far too big.

Pjotr wrote:Finally time to upgrade to 18.2, Cosmo.? :mrgreen:

I give you one promise: As long as 18.x gives more regressions and bugs than advantages, I will not leave 17.3 for it. And pitifully this is even on the third dot release for the LM 18 branch the case. Alone xed (we both are at now in a discussions about it in another thread) has at now at least 3 bugs, which do not happen in gedit. And xed is only a minor concern and example.

Besides that: Keeping LO (and other applications) current is not the least substantiation for upgrading the OS. I take them since years from their respective originate sources. As far as it goes about the main applications the official repos are a no-go for me.

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Pjotr » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:35 am

Cosmo. wrote:
Pjotr wrote:It looks like things have improved in 18.x; as far as I can see, it's only for 17.x that Mint maintains its "own" Libre Office:
http://packages.linuxmint.com/pool/impo ... breoffice/

Are you surprised about that? I am not.

Ubuntu tells everybody on the front page, that their LTS has 5 years support. But this is - to say it clearly - a trap. What gets supported for 5 years is only the minor part of the version, which gets maintained directly from Canonical. All the rest - the majority -, which gets maintained by the so called Masters of the Universe (MOTU) get - at best - 3 years support. Do you remember, that we discussed this 1 or 2 years ago? As said: at best and if the users are lucky. Your example demonstrates, that for Ubuntu 3 years are sometimes already after 1 year over.

But LO *is* being maintained by Canonical itself, because it's in the "Main" repository.... So at least for Libre Office in Mint 18.x you can indeed be sure, that you get security updates for the full five years.

Provided of course that your Linux Mint version gets its LO straight from Canonical's Main as well. Which is the case for 18.x, but not for 17.3. So I would certainly consider submitting a bug report for LO in 17.3: it was a clear mistake from the Mint devs, to put their "own" LO in the Mint 17.3 repo and then not maintain it.
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:53 am

Pjotr wrote:But LO *is* being maintained by Canonical itself, because it's in the "Main" repository.... So at least for Libre Office in Mint 18.x you can indeed be sure, that you get security updates for the full five years.

As said, LM 18.x is until now out of discussion for me for my main system.

Besides that: Even LO 5.1.x is outdated and officially (taken from the Document Foundation) since 9 months out of support. Alone the change log for LO 5.2 is a long list, for 5.3 and 5.4 similarly.

Pjotr wrote:So I would certainly consider submitting a bug report for LO in 17.3: it was a clear mistake from the Mint devs, to put their "own" LO in the Mint 17.3 repo and then not maintain it.

I have enough from replies about nitpicking and such. You know what I mean. And it would not change the least about it. (Side note: Where would be in your opinion be the proper place for this? You know that my similar question about placing an issue regarding virtualbox ended with something, which I do not want to name here with the proper word. :twisted: )

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Pjotr » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:58 am

Cosmo. wrote:
Pjotr wrote:But LO *is* being maintained by Canonical itself, because it's in the "Main" repository.... So at least for Libre Office in Mint 18.x you can indeed be sure, that you get security updates for the full five years.

Even LO 5.1.x is outdated and officially (taken from the Document Foundation) since 9 months out of support. Alone the change log for LO 5.2 is a long list, for 5.3 and 5.4 similarly.

"Out of support" upstream (Document Foundation), does not equal "out of support" downstream (Ubuntu/Mint). See one of my previous messages in this thread, about backporting security fixes. Or this explanation:
https://access.redhat.com/security/updates/backporting/

Note that it's all open source software, so backporting security fixes is always possible.
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:08 pm

When I speak about the change log, I speak about more than security fixes. Not everybody needs those improvements, that does not mean, that nobody has an advantage by them.

Another potential problem. Assumed, that LM 19 will come with LO 6, this would give a enormous number of changes, which a user would have to learn. Also this will create problems, at least the need for investing time to learn the changes. My method gets quicker results and less trouble.

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Pjotr » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:19 pm

Cosmo. wrote:When I speak about the change log, I speak about more than security fixes. Not everybody needs those improvements, that does not mean, that nobody has an advantage by them.

Indeed, but that wasn't the issue.... At least one of the help seekers in this thread was primarily concerned about security, not about new features or other improvements.

Linux Mint and the Ubuntu LTS that it's built on, are fixed releases and not rolling releases. Which guarantees maximum stability and reliability. That makes it fit for enterprises. And for people who don't always want the very latest, just because it's so shiny and new. :mrgreen:
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinux ... r-updates-
(item 3, left column)
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:09 pm

I don't see, what a new version of LO (or any application) might have to do with stability and reliability. If the minor releases don't get released at all (which have in case of LO nothing than fixes, usually for stability and reliability (more or less bug fixes), it is the contrary of stability. IMO this is a phrase. I don't say this against you, but against this half-hearded nonsense. (Where LO is only the on topic example.)

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Pjotr » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:12 pm

Cosmo. wrote:I don't see, what a new version of LO (or any application) might have to do with stability and reliability. If the minor releases don't get released at all (which have in case of LO nothing than fixes, usually for stability and reliability (more or less bug fixes), it is the contrary of stability.

But the LO in the Main repo is very stable.... Both in the days when Ubuntu had Open Office, and now Ubuntu/Mint with Libre Office, this fine office suite has always run stable and reliable on my machines.

So I have no objection at all, to this system of cherry-picking security fixes and backporting them.

Note that backporting security fixes requires more efforts from the Ubuntu developers, than simply pumping the latest minor LO version from upstream, unchanged into the Main repo. They do this effort because of the extra stability that it brings.
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:21 pm

There is no extra stability with the repo version. Otherwise i must have seen in those years a minor stability with the builds from the Document Foundation. The extra stability is a red herring.

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Pjotr » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:30 pm

Cosmo. wrote:There is no extra stability with the repo version. Otherwise i must have seen in those years a minor stability with the builds from the Document Foundation. The extra stability is a red herring.

Maybe there are use cases which you haven't tried, in which this extra stability can be seen.... At the very least, backporting gives theoretically a more stable result. Which is why it's being preferred by enterprises.

You don't hear me complain about enterprise-grade reliability. I don't care one bit about the new features I might be missing. They can stick 'em where the sun doesn't shine. :mrgreen:
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby xfrank » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:44 pm

Cosmo. wrote:LO 5.3.x will most likely never appear in the official repositories. So you have either to add a matching PPA or download the file and install it.

Charlie wrote:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

A very dangerous advice, as it circumvents the safety of the level system of the update manager. Don't be astonished, that at one point your system will give you troubles.


I would not call this method "dangerous", but there is a warning: with the newest versions of LO come also some bugs. My "bleeding edge" LO sometimes crashes. I can live with it, but it's annoying...
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Charlie » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:48 pm

xfrank wrote:
Cosmo. wrote:LO 5.3.x will most likely never appear in the official repositories. So you have either to add a matching PPA or download the file and install it.

Charlie wrote:

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

A very dangerous advice, as it circumvents the safety of the level system of the update manager. Don't be astonished, that at one point your system will give you troubles.


I would not call this method "dangerous", but there is a warning: with the newest versions of LO come also some bugs. My "bleeding edge" LO sometimes crashes. I can live with it, but it's annoying...


Mine has never run sweeter. Just updated FileZilla in a similar way and it is noticeably faster and smoother, not the latest release though.

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:18 pm

Pjotr wrote:Maybe there are use cases which you haven't tried, in which this extra stability can be seen.

There is always a thinkable "maybe". Where are the practical and documented cases? And what about the fixes, which the Document Foundation had applied, but did never make it into the repo version? Bugs for extra stability? A strange case.

BTW: I use LO daily. Do you really believe, that I find - and report - in all places of the OS, but not in the daily used office?

Again: This a red herring without substantiated proof.

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:19 pm

xfrank wrote:
Cosmo. wrote:I would not call this method "dangerous", but there is a warning: with the newest versions of LO come also some bugs. My "bleeding edge" LO sometimes crashes. I can live with it, but it's annoying...

It is not dangerous for LO, it is dangerous fr the system, as I already wrote.

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Pjotr » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:56 am

Cosmo. wrote:Again: This a red herring without substantiated proof.

Well, it's the "fixed release" principle.... If you don't like it, maybe you'd better switch to a rolling release, then? :mrgreen:
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:58 am

No, I don't like a rolling release - as far as it goes about the system.

IMO it is a mistake to take applications into the repos, if they do not fully updated. And examples, where even minor bug fix releases do not arrive there and far too often even security related updates come far to late (examples as usual Firefox & Thunderbird) demonstrate, that this has not the least to do with "extra stability". The opposite is true. Proven here by countless updates from their respective original sources (developers) since many years. Every update I do with this method confirms this method.

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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Pjotr » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:44 am

Cosmo. wrote:countless updates from their respective original sources (developers) since many years.

Note that such a setup might break expected behaviour.

Many applications share libraries; if those libraries are being updated to newer versions from outside the official repo's, some other applications (and even the system) might not function as before.

That's why I would never recommend that. It's "best practice" to treat your operating system as it was designed to be used: be careful and sparing with your exceptions. In general, you do well to go with the flow....

Off topic: maybe this also has something to do with your Xed not behaving in the expected way?
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Re: How to update Libre

Postby Cosmo. » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:50 am

Pjotr wrote:
Cosmo. wrote:countless updates from their respective original sources (developers) since many years.

Note that such a setup might break expected behaviour.

Nothing broke in all those years.
It does not help to write about things, which "might" break, if actually there is in reality nothing than broken security and stability because of missing or heavily delayed updates in the repos.

Pjotr wrote:Many applications share libraries; if those libraries are being updated to newer versions from outside the official repo's, some other applications (and even the system) might not function as before.

This is not the case. LO creates a link in /usr/bin and some more links in /usr/share/applications. All binaries go to /opt.
Besides that simple facts: If you would be right about possibly exchanged libraries, which can possibly affect other applications or even the system: How do you want to explain the direct contrary, which is described in the help file of the update manager (LM 18.2)? (Rhetorical, as you cannot.) All applications I mentioned here are set as level 1. So what you write is not even to be expected.

Pjotr wrote:Off topic: maybe this also has something to do with your Xed not behaving in the expected way?

Really off topic. As I described in the other tests the test systems are as pure Mint as can be. But to make it even more clear: All here named applications (LO, FF, TB) and also here not named applications and tools and whatever are installed as they come by default and only updated by the update manager. I don't use them in the test system (except if needed to do a test, e. g. the test which showed, that the change case issue does not apply for Writer), so missing or delayed updates for those applications bother me less than a grain of sand at the coast.


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