An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

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davidmedin
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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by davidmedin » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:34 pm

For all those that don't like the 'new stuff' in Windows 10 ... you know it can all be turned off right?

And there's even a free utility called Classic Shell that lets you customize the start menu to make it look like Win7 or even like Windows 2000 if you like.

PowerShell is pretty freaking awesome for automating mundane tasks.

It is not a bad desktop OS at all. The only truly bad thing is that you cannot opt out of 'feature upgrades' for longer than one year on the professional edition and you cannot opt out at all on the Home edition. Hence I came to desktop Linux but still have some Win10. As for expenses ... you can get a genuine Win10 license for $50 - 100 and given that you get 10 years' support with Windows it's not bad.

Sorry ... I'm not an apologist for Microsoft, I just think a lot of Linux people are kneejerking when they call Windows crap. There really is a reason Linux isn't good on the desktop, at least not for 95% of all users.

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by Pjotr » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:46 pm

davidmedin wrote:There really is a reason Linux isn't good on the desktop, at least not for 95% of all users.
Nonsense.
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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by davidmedin » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:04 pm

lol!

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by Night Wing » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:07 pm

davidmedin wrote:For all those that don't like the 'new stuff' in Windows 10 ... you know it can all be turned off right?

And there's even a free utility called Classic Shell that lets you customize the start menu to make it look like Win7 or even like Windows 2000 if you like.
About a week ago, the author (Ivo Belchev) of Classic Shell said he is no longer going to develop his program for Windows 10 and you can read about it in the link below.

https://www.tenforums.com/windows-10-ne ... ource.html

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by jimallyn » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:32 pm

davidmedin wrote:I just think a lot of Linux people are kneejerking when they call Windows crap.
I call all Microsoft stuff crap. I started calling it crap back in the DOS days. I just knew there had to be something better than that. (And sure enough there was: CPM.) I used Windows 3.11 for a while, then Win95, then Win98. Win98 is the last version of Windows I have had installed on any of my computers. I did also have the misfortune to use WinXP on my mother's computer now and then. My conclusion is that Win3.11, 95, 98, and XP all suck. I don't know much about Win8.x or 10, except what I hear from people at the local Senior Center computer club, and what I observe on the club's computer during meetings, and I have to conclude that Win8 and 10 both suck. Apparently Win7 isn't bad, though, and it doesn't spy on you like 10 does. I did a presentation on Linux at one of the club meetings, and they asked me to install Linux on the club's computer, which I did over the summer when the club doesn't meet. At the first meeting when we started up again in the fall, they asked me to do another presentation on Linux, to demonstrate how to install it. I did that and also showed them how to do updates and install new applications. Several people expressed an interest in having Linux on their computers, but so far only one has contacted me and said "Yes, please install Linux on my computer." (Which I will do in the next couple of weeks.) A few others have expressed an interest in having Linux on their computers and I assume they will have me help them with that sooner or later. In 2002, a friend gave me a Linux disc, and that was the beginning of the end of Windows for me. A couple of years ago I installed Linux on my brother's computer, and after he had used it for a while, his wife thanked me profusely, since she no longer had to listen to him yelling at the computer. Then she asked me to install it on her computer, and then she asked me to install it on her daughter's computer. When I call Microsoft crap, it's not a kneejerk reaction, it's based on decades of observation.
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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by Spearmint2 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:36 pm

My favorite windows was 2000.
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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by Jim Hauser » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:04 pm

Linux Mint KDE has been extremely good to me for the last four years. For some strange reason I don't seem to be having any major trouble at all. I am not the smartest person in the world. I am not a geek by any means. I do not have a large collection of old computers or computer parts in the closet. Up until 4 years ago I used nothing but Microsoft. When support for XP dropped, I dropped Microsoft. I was tired of upgrading my equipment to keep up with every little MS upgrade. When I finally went with Mint I no longer needed to do that. I could run my "old" equipment and upgrade hardware at my leisure.

Mint support and this forum have allowed me to do things that I never thought were possible with MS. I can run Mint KDE on an old Athlon 64 (single core 2 gigahertz) with a couple gigabytes of RAM without trouble. I can run Mint KDE on an FX 8350 (8 core 4 gigahertz per core) with 16 gigabytes of RAM and a 4 HDD striped LVM without trouble.

Like I said before, there is nothing that puts me above any other user. I am a 60 year old retired HVACR mechanic and business owner who is half blind in one eye and who suffered congestive heart failure and was supposed to die 15 years ago. Yet I still managed to get my Corsair K55 working on Linux, CAPS lock and all.

If all predictions came true then perhaps Linux might not win the "Desktop OS war" but then again, I would be dead.

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by davidmedin » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:53 pm

Night Wing wrote:
davidmedin wrote:For all those that don't like the 'new stuff' in Windows 10 ... you know it can all be turned off right?

And there's even a free utility called Classic Shell that lets you customize the start menu to make it look like Win7 or even like Windows 2000 if you like.
About a week ago, the author (Ivo Belchev) of Classic Shell said he is no longer going to develop his program for Windows 10 and you can read about it in the link below.

https://www.tenforums.com/windows-10-ne ... ource.html


Thanks for that. I don't blame him. I also moved off Windows 10 because of the too frequent updates. I may move my family and friends that I support off it too and onto Mint.

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by davidmedin » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:54 pm

jimallyn wrote:
davidmedin wrote:I just think a lot of Linux people are kneejerking when they call Windows crap.
I call all Microsoft stuff crap. I started calling it crap back in the DOS days. I just knew there had to be something better than that. (And sure enough there was: CPM.) I used Windows 3.11 for a while, then Win95, then Win98. Win98 is the last version of Windows I have had installed on any of my computers. I did also have the misfortune to use WinXP on my mother's computer now and then. My conclusion is that Win3.11, 95, 98, and XP all suck. I don't know much about Win8.x or 10, except what I hear from people at the local Senior Center computer club, and what I observe on the club's computer during meetings, and I have to conclude that Win8 and 10 both suck. Apparently Win7 isn't bad, though, and it doesn't spy on you like 10 does. I did a presentation on Linux at one of the club meetings, and they asked me to install Linux on the club's computer, which I did over the summer when the club doesn't meet. At the first meeting when we started up again in the fall, they asked me to do another presentation on Linux, to demonstrate how to install it. I did that and also showed them how to do updates and install new applications. Several people expressed an interest in having Linux on their computers, but so far only one has contacted me and said "Yes, please install Linux on my computer." (Which I will do in the next couple of weeks.) A few others have expressed an interest in having Linux on their computers and I assume they will have me help them with that sooner or later. In 2002, a friend gave me a Linux disc, and that was the beginning of the end of Windows for me. A couple of years ago I installed Linux on my brother's computer, and after he had used it for a while, his wife thanked me profusely, since she no longer had to listen to him yelling at the computer. Then she asked me to install it on her computer, and then she asked me to install it on her daughter's computer. When I call Microsoft crap, it's not a kneejerk reaction, it's based on decades of observation.

I respect that, the thing is that Windows actually started to get half-way decent when SP2 for XP was released and improved again (arguably perfected) in Windows 7. It's definitely on a downward trajectory now though.

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by thx-1138 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:53 am

It is not a bad desktop OS at all. The only truly bad thing is that you cannot opt out of 'feature upgrades' for longer than one year on the professional edition and you cannot opt out at all on the Home edition.
The ONLY 'truly bad thing' that you can't opt-out no matter what from Win10 is it's spying abilities...
Pjotr wrote:
davidmedin wrote:There really is a reason Linux isn't good on the desktop, at least not for 95% of all users.
Nonsense.
There really exists a reason that Win10 nowadays has to be pushed for 'free' on...95% of all desktop users :lol:
...the thing is that Windows actually started to get half-way decent when SP2 for XP was released and improved again (arguably perfected) in Windows 7.
XP SP2 literally killed with fire raw sockets support in the system's tcp/ip stack, thereby effectively crippling it. Why? Because malware authors at the time were exploiting this feature en mass to send spoofed packets.
No choice whatsoever was given to end-users to re-enable it somehow - not even advanced ones. This however had the side-effect of people NOT being able to open more concurrent connections (for example, say when using torrents). So what was the result? Some people reversed engineered & manually 'patched' the tcpip.sys driver...and end-users had to download this unofficial driver from random untrusted sites just to get decent speeds & partially this functionality back...
And that one above is just one example out of the many...

So, yes...in that sense...half-functionality probably equals...'half-way decent', lol...

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by davidmedin » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:05 pm

thx-1138 wrote:
XP SP2 literally killed with fire raw sockets support in the system's tcp/ip stack, thereby effectively crippling it. Why? Because malware authors at the time were exploiting this feature en mass to send spoofed packets.

Yes I remember it well. XP was a total disaster when it was first released and SP2 made it good. It also got 14 years of support from Microsoft to make up for the fact that it was so bad for the first four years (normally each OS gets 10 years)

Vast majority of people I know interpret SP2 as being a big milestone for making Windows more secure. I have never heard of the issue you talk of from anyone, ever, before this time. XP was an incredibly popular OS.

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by thx-1138 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:21 pm

...Google for "patch tcpip.sys windows xp". Also maybe for "raw sockets xp exploit".

What a great idea having to download & use a tcp/ip driver that some random hacker out there manually tweaked to...restore missing functionality.
XP was crap, no matter SP1, SP2 or SP3...All they did with SP2 was to first cripple the tcp/ip stack above, and further add a firewall on top of it. Oh yes, they also added a pop-up blocker in their Internet Exploiter...
Now if 'people' consider that a 'milestone', well, what can I say...

Exactly 2 months after 'XP SP2' was released, the first Ubuntu got released as well - that's what i think is a milestone... ;-)

Edit: ...Just googled a bit for the fun of it...et voilà ;-)
http://www.lvllord.de/
Even one of the 'hackers' responsible for fixing the broken tcp/ip says he moved on to Linux (since 2009!)...

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by Spearmint2 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:38 pm

SP3 broke the activation feature. After it was installed and you needed to activate it any time after, it would get locked into a loop unless you used regedit to remove the WPA section completely and only then it would allow proper activation again.
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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:59 pm

it seems to me that linus torvalds recently vented his frustration with certain contributors that wanted to do the same with the next linux kernel...IE...disable things within the structure of the linux kernel in the name of security making things difficult for the end user rather than submitting a proper fix to any problems or perceived problems that would insure an easy end user usage experience rather than the system trying to play nanny...in essence...he went medieval on their collective posterior backsides as he has become famous for lol...your mentions of this type of thing to do has been done by M$ windbloes not only with xp but every other iteration of windows thereafter...i submit {thank God} that linus will never be accused of wanting to emulate the M$ way of doing things so has handed these contributors (because of their advice to cripple or disable certain elements) their collective heads right back to them duly severed and bloodied...DAMIEN

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by Ozo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:18 pm

Microsoft has altered the menu of Windows10 so much that it has almost no resemblance to the menu's we are familiar with. That was the plan but it is now a chaotic mess. Please do not change Mints menu just to compete with Windows as there new menu area is a fail. I think there take is innovative but is not user friendly IMO.

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by thom_A » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:49 pm

Who actually still care whether Linux win or lose the desktop battle?

I doubt it's the reason why people go for Linux.

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by Jedinovice » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:51 am

In regards to Linux winning the Desktop war - I actually believe it is inevitable for a mass of reasons, many of which are NOT presented here!

As it stands, we have learned in recent years that Joe Public does not really want a fully specced out, multi-purpose laptop (certainly not a desktop unless they are a gamer.) Joe public is only really interested in browsing, social media, streaming media and selfies.

Joe Public, we have learned, wants their computer to be used as an appliance. That's where Chromebooks, tablets and smartphones have DECIMATED the old "full laptop" industry. Indeed, we cannot even talk about 'computers' any more. We have to talk about laptops. Twenty years ago I would talk about a computer. Now I have to talk about laptops because nobody knows what a computer is anymore!! Seriously. I discovered even in the UK that when I spoke about "a computer" or " a PC" people looked at me blankly. I had to say '"laptop" for them to grasp the subject being discussed! People no longer know what a PC or tower or desktop is any more. Yes, there are gamers and specialists, but we're talking about Uncle Joe here.

Desktops outside the office (and even then!) barely exist now. 'Everyone' uses laptops. Now, I have to use laptops!! But Joe public went with a laptop over a tower system years and years ago partly because laptops were smaller and could sit in a corner and looked more like an appliance than a Kom-poo-tur. Joe Public had no use case that really required a laptop (which commonly cost more than a mini-tower system) but it was an all in one unit Uncle Joe (often Auntie Jill, actually) could grasp in terms of an appliance.

So... Joe Public does not give a stuff about their hardware or OS as long as they can get online on a cheapo laptop. In fact, most users do not care about speed as long as they can stream HD video. I know because if speed mattered I would not be tripping over broken Windows 7 laptops that grind from the virus checker which does not work and the all the viruses that infest laptops here! Nobody cares because they get to go on Facebook... and even there they Facebook more with smartphone than laptop.

Why do I mention all this...? Because the dirt cheap OS ARM/Linux Pinebook is upon us and selling like hot cakes! Want one? Join the year long queue! Is the Pinebook a Windows killing laptop for the general user? No. Definitely not. It's for geeks and engineers. But the geeks and engineers that are buying the Pinebook sure as hell are going to be modding the Pinebook and coding for it so that it eventually DOES become the dirt cheap ARM/Linux laptop of the future, just as happened in the old 8 bit pioneers.

Given the Pinebook is, essentially, no more than a more capable Chromebook and Chromebooks have been a super best seller for years now - it's going to be a winner and Joe Public will buy the "Pinebook ][" because it will be DIRT CHEAP and do all the things 90% of the population actually want a laptop to do... which is very little actually.

I see the Pinebook as the Altair 8800 - the first *successful* strike of the home hacker who wants their own computer... again. If you want your own computer with an OS you control and does not spy on you (along with the ^%&$%# CPU now!!) you HAVE TO go ARM/Linux/FOSS! After the Pinebook 8800 will come the Pinebook 2001 and Pinebook ][ and Joe Public will start buying. I am confident in this. It might start with the more tech savvy but when Uncle Joe sees Uncle Harold using a 'super-Chromebook' running for half the cost of an actual Chromebook... he'll buy.
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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by dark » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:58 am

The main reason Linux doesn't dominate desktop is cuz lack of apps and games only available for Windows.

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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by Jedinovice » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:10 am

dark wrote:The main reason Linux doesn't dominate desktop is cuz lack of apps and games only available for Windows.
Disagree. See my post above.
What we have learned certainly since the arrival of the first netbooks is just how few apps the public really want.

Once ARM and Linux can come together to provide a cheap Chromebook killer, it's only a matter of time before Linux and ARM both become the new industry standards.

There are also a host of industry reasons for going ARM and Linux as well but the Wintel Monopoly has kept them locked in! But now people do not need Windows (or expensive Mac) to Facebook and watch "Death gore splat Part II" online... it really just boils down to price and nothing propitiatory can compete with Open source ARM and Linux and the hackers - real hackers who create things - are working on it right now via the Pinebook!
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Re: An Example Of Why Linux Has Not Won and Never Will Win The Desktop

Post by Spearmint2 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:09 am

dark wrote:The main reason Linux doesn't dominate desktop is cuz lack of apps and games only available for Windows.
I'm curious what percentage of users are actually "gaming" versus those who don't? Any stats?
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