What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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MurphCID
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:29 pm

rui no onna wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:39 pm
JosephM wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:05 pm
The biggest complaints people are making in this thread are around installation and setup.
I expect that's because majority of the criticisms on this thread come from (c) users. Newcomers to Linux that are probably proficient enough with Windows or Mac (and Google search) to be trying to install on their own and are then faced with some roadblocks.
You could have a point here. But for those like my father, they just want to press the power button and for it to work. He is absolutely an "a" user. Installation and set up are nothing my father ever wants to deal with. I am still having some early adopter issues with Mint 19, nothing critical, but annoying.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:04 pm

MurphCID wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:29 pm
rui no onna wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:39 pm
JosephM wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:05 pm
The biggest complaints people are making in this thread are around installation and setup.
I expect that's because majority of the criticisms on this thread come from (c) users. Newcomers to Linux that are probably proficient enough with Windows or Mac (and Google search) to be trying to install on their own and are then faced with some roadblocks.
You could have a point here. But for those like my father, they just want to press the power button and for it to work. He is absolutely an "a" user. Installation and set up are nothing my father ever wants to deal with. I am still having some early adopter issues with Mint 19, nothing critical, but annoying.
With Linux desktop penetration at 2%, I doubt (b)-type Linux gurus are just popping out of the woodwork. It's the (c) users that are often the go-to tech person in their circle of acquaintances. If the (c) users don't find Linux easy enough, they're likely not going to be recommending it or installing it on others' computers, either. Most (a) users (who likely use Linux-based Android smartphones) probably aren't even aware that Linux exists. Their choice of desktop OS is Windows or if they have $$$, Mac.

I'm dreading Windows 7 EOL. I just can't recommend Windows 10, Linux desktop still has its quirks (and if you find a distro you like, you kind of pray that it doesn't go defunct or go through a major desktop change like Ubuntu), and Macs are too expensive (plus getting "iOS-ified").

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JeremyB » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:27 pm

I think unsupported hardware is the #1 reason new users go back to Windows, #2 would be rude people trying to help, snarky remarks on forums/IRC

Windows works well with the factory OEM config but if you change hardware you need to download drivers in some cases. With Linux that hardware might be supported by the kernel already

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:40 am

The funny thing is as soon as I somewhere else mention, in my typically detailed way, the big problems/roadblocks that linux still faces.... some kind sole remarks that I clearly have not tried LM yet... then when I mention that that's where I'm experiencing the problems I get a dead silence :lol:

As for hardware the caveat is it "might" be supported in the kernel, it's with old PC's especially pretty much hit or miss. If you are the unlucky sod with a S3 onboard GPU for example good luck getting any kind of performance. And then there is the well known broadcom problems... It's easy to say choose more compatible hardware, it's not so easy to do it when you have inferior buying power and have settle for the cheapest most durable you can find in a 3rd world country which incidentally is where Linux would be of most theoretical use.... which leads me to another thing that turns people away from Linux.

Linux is too tied into the assumption of having an internet connection, for most 3rd-worlders internet is an extremely expensive luxury, windows penetration went deep and hard because of pirated windows cd's/dvd's. These machines typically have historically almost never experienced internet.... at all. Now with win10 also assuming internet it's kind of a circus of confusion with most PC's sold second hand having win10 pre-installed but a lot of those PC's which will very likely never get updated at least not over internet. A key difference here is on windows you can install third party software internet-less, the third world being third-worldly pretty much all private software is pirated. On linux internet is occasionally needed for dependencies.... pirated software usually includes all dependencies and works right out of the box so to speak. Now remember all moral and logical objections do not matter here, this is the situation on the ground, this is the unofficial competition for Linux in such areas where people get what they can get when they can get it and needing internet in any way can be a automatic dealbreaker. A solution could be to have "upgrade" centres but then you have a logistical nightmare and a giant task of managing to convince everyone to change their heavily entrenched ways which I can tell you from experience WILL NOT happen as even the policemen pirate everything they have privately.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:59 am

rambo919 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:40 am
As for hardware the caveat is it "might" be supported in the kernel, it's with old PC's especially pretty much hit or miss. If you are the unlucky sod with a S3 onboard GPU for example good luck getting any kind of performance. And then there is the well known broadcom problems... It's easy to say choose more compatible hardware, it's not so easy to do it when you have inferior buying power and have settle for the cheapest most durable you can find in a 3rd world country which incidentally is where Linux would be of most theoretical use.... which leads me to another thing that turns people away from Linux.
If someone's budget restricts them to older systems then the solution is to find an OS that runs on that hardware, along with the attendant security risks for OSen that are no longer supported. That's all people can do. Whining about current OSen not supporting old hardware doesn't get anyone anywhere.
Linux is too tied into the assumption of having an internet connection, for most 3rd-worlders internet is an extremely expensive luxury
So we should all stay in the dark ages just to be fair? In Indonesia, where I travel to regularly, there is a plethora of shops selling Linux on CD, DVD and USB. The cost is around $2. Good grief.
Last edited by catweazel on Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:01 am

rambo919 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:40 am
Linux is too tied into the assumption of having an internet connection, for most 3rd-worlders internet is an extremely expensive luxury, windows penetration went deep and hard because of pirated windows cd's/dvd's.
I don't think market penetration for Internet-less pirated software has any relevance in this discussion. Besides, a Linux Mint release can be installed and operated without Internet just fine and, unlike Windows, comes with a wide array of applications pre-installed. So your argument isn't even good.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:38 am

Whist you argument might hold some merit rambo, the issue with ALL modern operating systems and programs is the dependence upon connectivity to perform.It might be useful to investigate Flatpacks which is my impression a complete package that includes all dependencies.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:09 am

lsemmens wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:38 am
Whist you argument might hold some merit rambo, the issue with ALL modern operating systems and programs is the dependence upon connectivity to perform.It might be useful to investigate Flatpacks which is my impression a complete package that includes all dependencies.
Flatpaks are still an incomplete solution simply because it's so young the large scale resistance to it, it's "just not linux I tell you". The actual current implementation is half thought out and kinda schizophrenic and STILL assumes internet if something small is needed. Just because everyone is doing something does not mean it's a good idea either locally or globally it simply means everyone seems to be doing it. Something similar to the hated (sometimes with good reason) .net frameworks and VC runtimes for windows.... those are important because they just make things work and can be easily installed offline as a small extra to distributed software...emphasis on small because flatpack dependancies are HUGE especially on initial downloads.
gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:01 am
I don't think market penetration for Internet-less pirated software has any relevance in this discussion. Besides, a Linux Mint release can be installed and operated without Internet just fine and, unlike Windows, comes with a wide array of applications pre-installed. So your argument isn't even good.
catweazel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:59 am
So we should all stay in the dark ages just to be fair? In Indonesia, where I travel to regularly, there is a plethora of shops selling Linux on CD, DVD and USB. The cost is around $2. Good grief.
You both are confusing original setup needs with tertiary software installation needs. Unless software for linux actually starts being easily distributable with offline methods flatpaks themselves are irrelevant unless iso's with most common frameworked dependencies also becomes available but somehow I kinda doubt that.... also your own personal needs/wants are not the same as everyone else's. Problem is almost no one actually focusses on completely offline solutions because almost no one can agree on what would actually work for most people specifically because of the disconnect between own and general requirements.... then you get the "type c" users previously mentioned and everything becomes more complicated.

Also piracy as a matter of life (as in it's just there like water around a fish) is much more a cultural thing than a logic or security thing.... you cannot argue and better culture logically without making concessions on a local level. Security is also a non-starter because a common result of telling someone he needs to stay updated is "why? that will be a total waste of internet". Also the topic is "What sends noobs running back to Windows?".... sometimes simply the inability to not as easily pirate offline is EXACTLY what does this.... whether it's a popular thing to say or not it's the truth.

You want to get out of the "dark ages" fine, no one is going to stop you, just don't get surprised when a lot of people are left behind you. It's not about fairness but reality and practicality. Also there is no homogenous "3rd world" as if it's a franchise, each major area has different cultures regarding tech. Try selling linux DVD's in Africa and convincing people to stop pirating you will either get laughed at or ignored by most. Never bin to Indonesia so cannot comment on that.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:14 am

rambo919 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:09 am
catweazel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:59 am
So we should all stay in the dark ages just to be fair? In Indonesia, where I travel to regularly, there is a plethora of shops selling Linux on CD, DVD and USB. The cost is around $2. Good grief.
You both are confusing original setup needs with tertiary software installation needs.
Correction. You are attempting to make an argument out of something I did not argue. That's called a red herring.
rambo919 wrote: Try selling linux DVD's in Africa and convincing people to stop pirating you will either get laughed at or ignored by most.
Citation, please.
"There is, ultimately, only one truth -- cogito, ergo sum -- everything else is an assumption." - Me, my swansong.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:19 am

rambo, you've been able to distribute packaged Linux applications offline since the beginning of Linux distributions and package management systems basically. The Mint release notes even tell you how to download them for installation on a non-connected computer - Mint's script for that is bugged but that's another issue, it's still easily possible. If you can distribute copy protected commercial software on Windows then you can distribute freely available Linux software. What you are saying is just ridiculous and ultimately nonsensical.

Also your "piracy as a matter of life" argument remains entirely irrelevant, even if I was to entertain it. If at least you'd argue "piracy as a belief system" and thus people not wanting to use Linux over Windows because they cannot pirate it because it's free then I'd get half a laugh out of it...

If you have a relevant point I'm just not seeing it.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:05 am

catweazel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:14 am
Correction. You are attempting to make an argument out of something I did not argue. That's called a red herring.
catweazel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:59 am
In Indonesia, where I travel to regularly, there is a plethora of shops selling Linux on CD, DVD and USB. The cost is around $2. Good grief.
Unless those shops also sell extra USB drives with dependencies needed for for tertiary software AFTER initial OS installation it IS something you argued.
catweazel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:14 am
rambo919 wrote: Try selling linux DVD's in Africa and convincing people to stop pirating you will either get laughed at or ignored by most.
Citation, please.
Other than personal experience (yes I happen to live in Africa) it might be difficult to find online "evidence". There are a few places that sell OS installation DVD's yes but they have not made much impact with the general rural public who half the time do not even know they exist.... of course in the very rural areas tech operating knowledge itself is sometimes limited but that's another discussion.
Last edited by rambo919 on Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:11 am

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:19 am
rambo, you've been able to distribute packaged Linux applications offline since the beginning of Linux distributions and package management systems basically. The Mint release notes even tell you how to download them for installation on a non-connected computer - Mint's script for that is bugged but that's another issue, it's still easily possible. If you can distribute copy protected commercial software on Windows then you can distribute freely available Linux software. What you are saying is just ridiculous and ultimately nonsensical.

Also your "piracy as a matter of life" argument remains entirely irrelevant, even if I was to entertain it. If at least you'd argue "piracy as a belief system" and thus people not wanting to use Linux over Windows because they cannot pirate it because it's free then I'd get half a laugh out of it...

If you have a relevant point I'm just not seeing it.
For that you need at least one person willing to download the whole repo and keep it updated (which requires a expensive internet), then you have to convince the community that this guy (who will most likely have to be paid somehow) should gain entry into their homes to regularly update their PC's. Even if you argue that everyone miraculously has laptops not everyone has the transportation or time to goto a central updating centre.... even if all the logistics get ironed out who exactly will pay for all this?

You assume that everyone thinks deeply enough about software to care about what a "pirate" is or not, many simply copy because they can or because they cannot afford to pay full price and that's that. Culture does not equal belief.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:16 am

rambo919 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:05 am
... AFTER initial OS installation it IS something you argued.
Absolute, unmittigated nonsense.

I'm out of this thread.
"There is, ultimately, only one truth -- cogito, ergo sum -- everything else is an assumption." - Me, my swansong.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:31 am

rambo919 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:11 am
For that you need at least one person willing to download the whole repo and keep it updated (which requires a expensive internet), then you have to convince the community that this guy (who will most likely have to be paid somehow) should gain entry into their homes to regularly update their PC's. Even if you argue that everyone miraculously has laptops not everyone has the transportation or time to goto a central updating centre.... even if all the logistics get ironed out who exactly will pay for all this?
"Absolute, unmittigated nonsense.

I'm out of this thread." -- a wise man

Seriously, I haven't seen you say a single thing that remotely made sense so far. You are fishing for arguments where clearly there are none. Let's not carry this on further, it's going nowhere and just polluting an otherwise constructive thread.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:58 am

rambo919 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:39 am
...................................
What people in between want is typically a winxp/win7-like experience for normal usage without all the backend problems.
...................................
...winxp/win7-like experience - sounds to me like we are talking either about zombies, or most likely, very dangerous perverts?... :)
XP-Grave.jpg

To all affected ones...do not desperate! You do can help yourself before it's too late -
visit your local Linux doctor today, and start intensive therapy asap... :lol:

Soon to also be added in DSM-5's catalog...
7.jpg

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:29 am

thx-1138 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:58 am
7.jpg
Image
"There is, ultimately, only one truth -- cogito, ergo sum -- everything else is an assumption." - Me, my swansong.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:55 am

No, not perverts or wierdos, my father who is 80 first used a desktop computer with Windows XP, and kept it for twelve years until it died, and then he got a Windows 7 system, and never liked it because it was not XP. He does not like change, he likes things that are stable, work the way he expects it to work, and he does not have to think about. He never wants to tinker under the hood, he never wants to write a script, he never wants to open Nano or Emacs and configure a file to work right, he just wants to push the power button, and it to do what he wants and needs the computer to do for him. He does not want to deal with dependency h*ll, he does not want to have to search for drivers, he wants it to update as needed, and stay out of his way. His laptop is an inexpensive HP with a DVD drive, running MInt 18.3 at this point. He thinks the "XP" system works great, and his only issue is that he cannot load Turbo Tax, but he does that on his desktop. I told him that the "new" Turbo Tax does not work on the "XP" laptop, and he is ok with that. All his icons are there for what he wants to do: Chrome, VLC, card games, etc.

He is certainly an "A" user, and that is ok. It is ok to be an "A" or "C" user. Linux is not and should never become only for the L33t H@x0rs, and the Priesthood of Linus. Why do you think that almost no one uses Slackware anymore, or Arch having a smaller user base than Mint/Ubuntu/Manjaro/Etc.? It is because those distros allow for the "A" and "C" users to actually use the o/s without having to have the equivalent of a BS in Computer Science.

I will go out on a limb here, and if someone sold a range of reasonably priced Linux laptops and desktops, pre configured in the $400-600 range, with a moderate amount of marketing, they would sell well. The Linux community kills itself with cries of "sell out", "Commercial is evil", and like comments which is what keep us as a niche market. We need to get over ourselves. Heck if Best Buy was selling an HP or Dell laptop with a 1920x1080 screen 8 gb of ram, and either an i5 or Ryzen processor and Linux Mint installed, I would buy one.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:06 am

MurphCID wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:55 am
I will go out on a limb here, and if someone sold a range of reasonably priced Linux laptops and desktops, pre configured in the $400-600 range, with a moderate amount of marketing, they would sell well.
My Asus laptop came with Linux (Elementary OS) pre-installed. The Asus website claims only Windows as the supported OS. I guess the pre-installed Linux is just considered like the FreeDOS you'd have on disks before. Just something so it can start up, but not a real operating system. Also the sales person was rather insistent trying to get me to install Windows instead though.

You don't make money "selling" free software, so it isn't and never well be marketed, it's as simple as that.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:38 am

MurphCID wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:55 am
No, not perverts or wierdos, my father who is 80 first used a desktop computer with Windows XP, and kept it for twelve years until it died, and then he got a Windows 7 system, and never liked it because it was not XP. He does not like change...
...Holy cow - so now we are once again back into the "Grandma Linux" argument?
Hell yeah - great progress since the previous pages of this thread! :shock: :mrgreen:

My father, at 83 now, does NOT have a computer. He also does NOT have a cellphone.
Even more, he does NOT even have a 'plastic' card - he only uses cash for transactions. Why? Because he...does not like change.
He is VERY happy without even knowing what "XP" (or cellphones, or electronic transactions are or work). Period.

...if people designed OSes with my father in their mind as a potential target customer group, well, Houston, we'd have a problem my guess... :wink:

Btw...like change or not...XP & Zed's Dead=> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7Yp2L6c2KM

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:50 am

catweazel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:29 am
thx-1138 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:58 am
...winxp/win7-like experience - sounds to me like we are talking either about zombies, or most likely, very dangerous perverts?... :)

XP-Grave.jpg


To all affected ones...do not desperate! You do can help yourself before it's too late -
visit your local Linux doctor today, and start intensive therapy asap... :lol:

Soon to also be added in DSM-5's catalog...

7.jpg

Image
.
That, I think, is a kind of missionary zeal.

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