737 max

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AndyMH
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737 max

Post by AndyMH »

Found this very interesting:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/avi ... -developer
As a Brit who has had to work with a number of major US corporations, I have seen the kind of behavior alleged in the article.
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gm10
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Re: 737 max

Post by gm10 »

Interesting article, thanks for the link, even though I do not necessarily agree with all of his somewhat romantic "everything was better in the old days"-type conclusions. Airplanes are much safer today than in the old days not just despite the added complexity but because of it. And that's notwithstanding that the 737 MAX case was a series of major mistakes or major corruption in the certification process, I don't know. Usually both.
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Portreve
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Re: 737 max

Post by Portreve »

To be fair, I do not have the kind of respect (in general) for current-day engineers that I had and still have for those of yesteryear.

It's not that I think current-era design and testing tools (that is to say, highly capable because of the availability of incredibly powerful computers) are a bad thing. I don't. I just feel engineers these days have far too much either done for them or spoon-fed to them, and I really don't trust their judgement.

Personally, I sort of hold my breath every time I buy something I've spent a fair amount of money on, or something which interacts in some form or fashion with my life needs or personal safety (for example, a car or a computer or medical equipment in a doctor's office) because I sense a shallowness to people's knowledge and experience. Give me an engineer any day who tells his employer to go stick it because their standards aren't up to hers or his.
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Re: 737 max

Post by 1.618 »

I don't know much about aircraft or aircraft engineering but I follow a youtube channel called Blancolirio, Juan Browne is a qualified commercial jet airliner pilot and journalist who has been doing some awesome in depth coverage of the 737 max and other air disasters, being a pilot who flies these planes for a living he is better qualified than your average reporter and youtube channel to explain the technical stuff. Also favoured for his no BS approach to stories, a channel you can trust for facts and accurate information.

https://www.youtube.com/user/blancoliri ... _polymer=1
Last edited by 1.618 on Wed May 22, 2019 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 737 max

Post by mediclaser »

One way to learn, experience, and enjoy aviation and its technologies (without spending $$$$$$) is to get into RC plane modelling hobby. Just an idea, in case you guys are itching to get more of it. :)
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Re: 737 max

Post by catweazel »

Thanks for posting the link. I found that fascinating.
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michael louwe
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Re: 737 max

Post by michael louwe »

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... b11f452f0f - what-we-missed-when-the-first-boeing-737-max-crashed

www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... cas-jt610/ - what-is-the-boeing-737-max-maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/ - boeing-nearing-737-max-fleet-bulletin-on-aoa-warning-after-lion-air-crash

https://www.engadget.com/amp/2019/03/18 ... ion-flaws/ - boeing-737-max-faa-certification-flaws

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... afety-flaw - boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw

https://africa.timesofnews.com/explaine ... s-say.html - explainer-change-to-737-max-controls-may-have-imperiled-planes-experts-say
.
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It was during flight testing that the tendency of the B737-MAX to pitch up became apparent. So the MCAS was designed, but pilots were not informed that it was now part of the system. Boeing is claiming that if one of the two AOA(angle of attack) sensors inputs an imminent stall then the MCAS kicks in.

The new software update/fix is going to require that both AOA sensors need to show imminent stall and nose up before it engages. The new software is also going to reduce the angle of nose down and the frequency. After a set number of pilot corrections the MCAS will disengage and not fight the pilot. The pilot will also have the option during the up down fight to disable the MCAS which runs separate from auto pilot.

ALL of this information is available on numerous sites as well as Boeing's press releases. Many aviation experts have weighed in stating that allowing the MCAS to engage when only one of the two sensors reports poor AOA and imminent stall is ridiculous and that all other systems have double or triple fail-safes to ensure one faulty sensor can not activate emergency procedures when not needed.
= a comment at news.yahoo

The Airbuses also have similar computerized anti-stall systems but faulty AOA sensor/s did not result in an auto-crash soon after take-off, mainly because pilots' manual input on the joy-stick or flight controls could neutralize the auto-nosedown actions of the anti-stall system.
....... Boeing's computerized anti-stall MCAS overpowers the pilots' flight control manual inputs/forces = a faulty AOA sensor can trigger the MCAS to forcefully auto-nosedown and auto-crash the plane soon after takeoff if the pilots did not take corrective action within 40 seconds, ie immediately switch off the 2 Stab-Trim Cutout switches as soon as they sensed something was going wrong(= airplane suddenly nosing down instead of being nose-up during takeoff climb). ...

The Airbus A320 has 3 AOA sensors and triple fail-safes and yet the triple fail-safes and sensors could still fail and falsely trigger the computerized anti-stall system, eg Lufthansa Flight LH1829 in 2014.
http://www.aviation-accidents.net/lufth ... ht-lh1829/

XL Airways Flight GXL888T = AOA sensors failure & test-pilot error resulting in a crash.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XL_Airway ... light_888T
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michael louwe
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Re: 737 max

Post by michael louwe »

AndyMH wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:06 pm
Found this very interesting:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/avi ... -developer
As a Brit who has had to work with a number of major US corporations, I have seen the kind of behavior alleged in the article.
18 Apr 2019 | 19:49 GMT
How the Boeing 737 Max Disaster Looks to a Software Developer
Design shortcuts meant to make a new plane seem like an old, familiar one are to blame
By Gregory Travis
.
From the link, the main conclusion is that software developers can auto-crash airplanes, computers, cars, etc, eg the unsafely developed anti-stall MCAS, buggy OS updates/upgrades, self-driving Tesla crashes and insecure Intel processors(= Meltdown, Spectre, Zombieload, etc).

Unfortunately, the 4 dead B737-MAX pilots could not use Timeshift to timeshift themselves out of the auto-crash caused by the inept Boeing software developers of the anti-stall MCAS.

Maybe, all modern airplanes and cars should also have Timeshift installed so that software developers can continue to do sloppy and careless work. *sarcasm*
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Portreve
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Re: 737 max

Post by Portreve »

I'm flying to Germany shortly. I feel very, very sorry for all those souls lost because of how Boeing has handled this. That said, I checked my flight information (you can't even call it a "ticket" any more... what the heck?) very carefully to be sure what I'm entrusting my life to.

Believe me, if I could walk or drive there instead, I would.
Your intermittently humble Portreve.

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