Fatal Fascination

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jglen490
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by jglen490 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:54 pm

I agree that network connection data is important. Most of it created on install and is fairly static, and reproducible upon a re-install.

A large part of configuration data is based on each user, and is found in /home. Thus /home not should be, but NEEDS to be, on its own partition to facilitate backup and recovery from backup and to isolate it from being needlessly formatted during a recovery/reinstall operation.

For new users especially, Timeshift is setup to record change in the OS/apps and not to backup user data. User data is not otherwise recoverable unless a backup strategy is used to routinely make full and point in time records of that data.

I'm not saying that anyone here is dong anything wrong with the advice being given. I would recommend better advice, especially to new users. And Mint has a LOT of new users. Everyone of them will have the same problem(s) at some point in time. Complete, consistent, and sound advice is the best way to do good service to the new folks.

Again, I'm not saying that Timeshift is a bad piece of software. It is all too often portrayed as if it were a backup and recovery solution, rather than the snapshot and restoration solution that it is. It is part of an overall good restoration and recovery solution; but only a part.
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ColdBootII
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by ColdBootII » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:07 pm

jglen490 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:32 pm
My contention is that there is NOTHING in the normal OS/software update process in Mint that would introduce the kind of instabilities that would be mitigated by Timeshift. That's my first point.
Though I agree with you on this one, based on some years with Mint, I'll mention first hand one instance when Timeshift did mitigate my action and proved usefull.

So, I wanted to test Mate 1.22 in Mint 19.1 and upgraded from some PPA... It didn't work for me, there where issues I couldn't ignore, and I reverted back by a simple click in Timeshift's interface which did its magic in 10 minutes or less, giving me my stable desktop, as if I did nothing ...

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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by ajgringo619 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:12 pm

ColdBootII wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:07 pm
Though I agree with you on this one, based on some years with Mint, I'll mention first hand one instance when Timeshift did mitigate my action and proved usefull.

So, I wanted to test Mate 1.22 in Mint 19.1 and upgraded from some PPA... It didn't work for me, there where issues I couldn't ignore, and I reverted back by a simple click in Timeshift's interface which did its magic in 10 minutes or less, giving me my stable desktop, as if I did nothing ...
This is a perfect example of a real-life test-case of Timeshift. I did something similar with a Mesa PPA when I had a Radeon card that wasn't playing well with the default Mint drivers.
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rene
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by rene » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:43 pm

ajgringo619 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:12 pm
This is a perfect example of a real-life test-case of Timeshift.
Also a perfect reminder of its limitations, given that the first thing that came to mind was that his home directory could at that point have contained with the restored system incompatible configuration from the newer MATE...

But sure, details. And Timeshift isn't by itself in any sense to blame for any problems it may introduce; using it discriminately and explicitly can make great sense. It's its silly automation in Mint that causes the many issues we see with it on the forum...

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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by ColdBootII » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:41 pm

rene wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:43 pm
ajgringo619 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:12 pm
This is a perfect example of a real-life test-case of Timeshift.
Also a perfect reminder of its limitations, given that the first thing that came to mind was that his home directory could at that point have contained with the restored system incompatible configuration from the newer MATE...
Yes, true that but then again, that wasn't much of the problem either... Created a new user, copied my regular files and also some configs and that did it without a hitch for me until the upgrade to 19.2 with Mate 1.22, better integrated with the rest of the distro.

jglen490
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by jglen490 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:21 pm

Perfect example of using a PPA and finding a problem.

O.K., we're not going to agree about the proper use of Timeshift, but so far no one has come up with a good reason to NOT discuss proper backup solutions. So here it goes.

Don't use Timeshift as a backup solution, use Grsync and a rotating, multiple set of external USB drives to copy all files in /home. The .cache file can be excepted. The timing is based on the frequency of user updates and additions to user data and configuration files. An example would be a full backup weekly, and daily change backups. Or go old school and use rsync on the command line.
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by BigEasy » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:41 am

Linix Mint for beginners means only mostly beginners told which other.... Remember, boys, timeshift is system backup tool. Only tool! And only you and nobody else is responsible for how you using it. As usual there is stupid way and clever way.
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jglen490
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by jglen490 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:47 pm

O.K., I'll say it again - and I am not the only one to say so. Timeshift is not a backup tool. It is a snapshot and recovery tool, that by default performs its magic on the OS and apps.

Timeshift is one part of a strategy to protect and recover and restore an installation. Timeshift, by default does not protect user data. The only thing that protects user data is a backup tool that copies user data to a protected target device for receiving the user's data. Grsync and Lucky Backup are examples of proper backup tools - there are others.

If you want something to help recover a specific configuration condition for your OS and apps, use Timeshift. If you want something to restore user data use Grsync or Lucky Backup, or similar tools. Use both to give you recoverability of your OS, apps, and data.
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rene
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by rene » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:18 pm

jglen490 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:47 pm
If you want something to help recover a specific configuration condition for your OS and apps, use Timeshift. If you want something to restore user data use Grsync or Lucky Backup, or similar tools.
Or just enable user data backup in the Timeshift settings of course.

As in... this "not a backup tool" thing here on the forum is getting out of hand a bit. It's a fine statement if wanting to relay that it doesn't backup user data by default, is not meant to be a general backup tool, that better general backup solutions may exist, what have you, but of course it's a backup tool; a system-backup tool by default, and easily configured to be more than that if so desired. It not being so is a conceptual point and no one at this point still in this thread needs to "have it said again".

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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by jglen490 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:41 pm

rene,

Are you absolutely certain that a new Mint user absolutely understands what Timeshift is and how to properly configure it?

I'm not attacking you, but I am saying that way too many new Mint users do not understand what Timeshift is, or how to properly configure it. That is evidenced by the number of posts that express concerns about space usage and default Timeshift usage.

On the other hand, you can just tell me that my advice is crap and to just go away ...
I feel more like I do than I did when I got here.
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rene
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by rene » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:17 pm

jglen490 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:41 pm
Are you absolutely certain that a new Mint user absolutely understands what Timeshift is and how to properly configure it?
No. But what I was questioning was usefulness of at every mention of Timeshift repeating the same "not a backup tool" mantra a thousand times, and in a thread and at a point in a thread where it's obvious it has outgrown total-newbie status.

I.e., your "I'll say it again" annoyed me a bit --- but don't let it mean much: most people annoy me most of the time...

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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by catweazel » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:17 am

rene wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:17 pm
jglen490 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:41 pm
Are you absolutely certain that a new Mint user absolutely understands what Timeshift is and how to properly configure it?
No. But what I was questioning was usefulness of at every mention of Timeshift repeating the same "not a backup tool" mantra a thousand times, and in a thread and at a point in a thread where it's obvious it has outgrown total-newbie status.

I.e., your "I'll say it again" annoyed me a bit --- but don't let it mean much: most people annoy me most of the time...
Timeshift is not a backup tool.
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by Moem » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:28 am

Okay, but is Timeshift a backup tool? :P
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If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by gm10 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:36 am

Moem wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:28 am
Okay, but is Timeshift a backup tool? :P
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:mrgreen:

(I know you were joking)
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by Pjotr » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:50 am

Timeshift is not intended to be a backup tool....., but if you know what you do, it can be configured as such. :twisted:
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by Moem » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:53 am

Image
Image

If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by gm10 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:59 am

But what if TimeShift is a VIDEO GAME:

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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by jglen490 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:48 am

Jeez, who can resist a kitten ...
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by Pjotr » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:51 am

jglen490 wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:48 am
Jeez, who can resist a kitten ...
Ha! I eat kittens for breakfast. With garlic sauce and a touch of thyme. 8)
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Re: Fatal Fascination

Post by gm10 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:58 am

Pjotr wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:51 am
Ha! I eat kittens for breakfast. With garlic sauce and a touch of thyme. 8)
You should try this recipe for lunch! :twisted:
Tune up your LM 19.x: ppa:gm10/linuxmint-tools

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