Wondering about monitors

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Wondering about monitors

Post by PaulL »

How does Linux decide which of my two monitors is #1 and which is #2?

I got a small bonus seven or eight years ago, and bought a second monitor, identical to the one I already had. I hooked it up. The original monitor was connected with a DP cable, and the second monitor was attached with an HDMI cable. I wasn't surprised that Windows recognized it as #2. Easy to tell Windows that #2 was my primary monitor, so I did.

When I moved to my present house, I reconnected everything the same way (I'm sure of that, because I left the monitor cables attached). So Windows still saw the left-hand, primary monitor as #2, and the right-hand monitor as #1. No surprises there. When I installed Linux, the system still recognized #2 as #2, and #1 as #1. Easy to tell Linux that #2 is my primary monitor, so I did.

A few days ago, the cat destroyed my HDMI cable, so I had to buy a new one. I thought I was being clever by getting a 4' (122 cm) cable. Should have got 6' (183 cm). But no problem, I just moved the adapter (connects the socket on the monitor to a regular HDMI cable) to the closer monitor, and now the left-and monitor is DP, and the right-hand monitor is HDMI, instead of the other way round.

Here's the weird part: The left-hand monitor, now on a DP cable, is still #2! Till that point, I thought it was the cabling that decided. But it occurred to me that perhaps the monitors have some built-in indicator of who they are, so to test that hypothesis, I disconnected the two monitors and swapped their positions on my desk. The original monitor, which was always primary, is back on the DP connection, and the newer monitor is back on the HDMI connection. It's just their positions that have changed from the original setup. But now, the left-hand monitor is still monitor #2.

Anyone have an idea of what's going on? How does Linux decide these things? How can it tell which monitor is the right-hand one, to make it primary? As my testing has shown, it's not the cabling, and it's not anything intrinsic to the monitors. What gives?
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Re: Womdering about monitors

Post by SMG »

PaulL wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 3:19 pm How can it tell which monitor is the right-hand one, to make it primary?
You have not mentioned what Desktop Environment you are using, but I thought all of them gave you the option to set which screen is primary regardless of where it is located.
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Re: Womdering about monitors

Post by PaulL »

Sorry, what I meant to ask is why the left-hand monitor is always monitor number 2, even if I swap them, and regardless of whether the connections are HDMI on the left and DP on the right, or vice versa. And yes, I then have to designate monitor 2 as the primary, or the graphics tablet won't work right.

Somehow, the graphics card has a way of figuring out which monitor is physically closer to the CPU and making it number 1, regardless of how the two monitors are physically connected to which of the ports. I find that highly interesting and would like to know how it's done. Obviously this is an ability possessed by many graphics cards, or the DE wouldn't have to provide a way to make monitor 2 the primary monitor.
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Re: Womdering about monitors

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PaulL wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:15 pm Sorry, what I meant to ask is why the left-hand monitor is always monitor number 2, even if I swap them, and regardless of whether the connections are HDMI on the left and DP on the right, or vice versa.
You have not provided any information about your hardware or your installation.

This issue likely has more to do with the make and model of your monitor than it does anything else. Many people have discovered when their system resumes from sleep that one monitor comes back faster than the other. That is a function of the type of connection (HDMI, DP, etc) and the monitor itself. Many newer monitors have "power-saving" features which affect the timing of their ability to resume from sleep.

Additionally, there is a sequence on GPUs as to when each port is powered. They do not all come on instantaneously.
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Re: Womdering about monitors

Post by PaulL »

You're absolutely right; the primary monitor can always be designated in the Display Settings, and I shouldn't be wasting people's time with my observations of a hardware quirk.

I do wish that grub would respect the Display Settings designation of which monitor is primary, however. It always makes for some confusion while logging in, because it affects the mapping of my graphics tablet to the displays.
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Re: Wondering about monitors

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PaulL wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:30 pmI do wish that grub would respect the Display Settings designation of which monitor is primary, however.
That is not possible because the Display Setting does not take effect until after you log into the desktop of the operating system.

Grub happens before the operating system is launched. Check your computer's BIOS/UEFI to see if there is an option for designating your preference. I can not recall for sure, but I seem to recall hearing that DP has preference over HDMI with regards to the BIOS (and thus grub).
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Re: Wondering about monitors

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No joy, alas! The computer is not young; it was built in 2019, so the BIOS is not all that sophisticated. I did observe a few things, however:

First, during boot, the HDMI monitor (on the right) starts showing a display about a second before the DP monitor does. But inxi reports the DP monitor as Monitor-1, and the HDMI monitor as Monitor-2. On the other hand, Display Settings shows the HDMI monitor as #1, and the DP monitor as #2, which I have to set as being on the left and being the primary monitor.

Here's what I'm talking about:

Code: Select all

System:
  Kernel: 5.15.0-73-generic x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 11.3.0 Desktop: Cinnamon 5.6.8
    tk: GTK 3.24.33 wm: muffin dm: LightDM Distro: Linux Mint 21.1 Vera base: Ubuntu 22.04 jammy
Machine:
  Type: Desktop System: HP product: HP Pavilion Desktop PC 570-p0xx v: N/A
    serial: <superuser required> Chassis: type: 3 serial: <superuser required>
  Mobo: HP model: 82F2 v: 00 serial: <superuser required> UEFI: AMI v: F.43 date: 07/01/2019
CPU:
  Info: quad core model: Intel Core i7-7700 bits: 64 type: MT MCP arch: Kaby Lake rev: 9 cache:
    L1: 256 KiB L2: 1024 KiB L3: 8 MiB
  Speed (MHz): avg: 2309 high: 4107 min/max: 800/4200 cores: 1: 3923 2: 4107 3: 3920 4: 1543
    5: 1256 6: 1235 7: 1290 8: 1200 bogomips: 57600
  Flags: avx avx2 ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx
Graphics:
  Device-1: Intel HD Graphics 630 vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: i915 v: kernel ports:
    active: DP-2,HDMI-A-1 empty: DP-1 bus-ID: 00:02.0 chip-ID: 8086:5912
  Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.21.1.4 driver: X: loaded: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa
    gpu: i915 display-ID: :0 screens: 1
  Screen-1: 0 s-res: 3840x1080 s-dpi: 96
  Monitor-1: DP-2 pos: primary,left model: AOC 2269W res: 1920x1080 dpi: 102 diag: 547mm (21.5")
  Monitor-2: HDMI-1 mapped: HDMI-A-1 pos: right model: AOC 2269W res: 1920x1080 dpi: 102
    diag: 547mm (21.5")
  OpenGL: renderer: Mesa Intel HD Graphics 630 (KBL GT2) v: 4.6 Mesa 22.2.5 direct render: Yes
Audio:
  Device-1: Intel 200 Series PCH HD Audio vendor: Hewlett-Packard driver: snd_hda_intel v: kernel
    bus-ID: 00:1f.3 chip-ID: 8086:a2f0
  Sound Server-1: ALSA v: k5.15.0-73-generic running: yes
  Sound Server-2: PulseAudio v: 15.99.1 running: yes
  Sound Server-3: PipeWire v: 0.3.48 running: yes
Network:
  Device-1: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet vendor: Hewlett-Packard
    driver: r8169 v: kernel pcie: speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 1 port: d000 bus-ID: 02:00.0
    chip-ID: 10ec:8168
  IF: enp2s0 state: down mac: <filter>
  Device-2: Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 3168NGW [Stone Peak] driver: iwlwifi v: kernel pcie:
    speed: 2.5 GT/s lanes: 1 bus-ID: 03:00.0 chip-ID: 8086:24fb
  IF: wlp3s0 state: up mac: <filter>
Bluetooth:
  Device-1: Intel Wireless-AC 3168 Bluetooth type: USB driver: btusb v: 0.8 bus-ID: 1-10:7
    chip-ID: 8087:0aa7
  Report: hciconfig ID: hci0 rfk-id: 0 state: up address: <filter> bt-v: 2.1 lmp-v: 4.2
    sub-v: 1100
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 1.14 TiB used: 68.54 GiB (5.9%)
  ID-1: /dev/sda vendor: Samsung model: SSD 860 EVO 1TB size: 931.51 GiB speed: 6.0 Gb/s
    serial: <filter>
  ID-2: /dev/sdb type: USB vendor: SanDisk model: Cruzer Glide size: 119.25 GiB serial: <filter>
  ID-3: /dev/sdd type: USB vendor: Generic model: SD MMC MS PRO size: 116.11 GiB
    serial: <filter>
Partition:
  ID-1: / size: 915.32 GiB used: 38.17 GiB (4.2%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda2
  ID-2: /boot/efi size: 511 MiB used: 6.1 MiB (1.2%) fs: vfat dev: /dev/sda1
Swap:
  ID-1: swap-1 type: file size: 2 GiB used: 0 KiB (0.0%) priority: -2 file: /swapfile
USB:
  Hub-1: 1-0:1 info: Hi-speed hub with single TT ports: 16 rev: 2.0 speed: 480 Mb/s
    chip-ID: 1d6b:0002
  Device-1: 1-1:2 info: Dell Keyboard SK-8115 type: Keyboard driver: hid-generic,usbhid rev: 1.1
    speed: 1.5 Mb/s chip-ID: 413c:2003
  Device-2: 1-3:3 info: Wacom CTH-490 [Intuos Art/Photo/Comic (S)] type: HID,Mouse
    driver: usbhid,wacom rev: 2.0 speed: 12 Mb/s chip-ID: 056a:033c
  Device-3: 1-7:4 info: SanDisk Cruzer Glide type: Mass Storage driver: usb-storage rev: 2.0
    speed: 480 Mb/s chip-ID: 0781:5575
  Device-4: 1-8:5 info: Seiko Epson EP-903A/EP-903F [Artisan 835/Stylus Photo PX820FWD Series]
    type: Printer,Mass Storage driver: usb-storage,usblp rev: 2.0 speed: 480 Mb/s chip-ID: 04b8:0860
  Device-5: 1-9:6 info: Realtek 3-in-1 (SD/SDHC/SDXC) Card Reader type: Mass Storage
    driver: ums-realtek rev: 2.0 speed: 480 Mb/s chip-ID: 0bda:0153
  Device-6: 1-10:7 info: Intel Wireless-AC 3168 Bluetooth type: Bluetooth driver: btusb rev: 2.0
    speed: 12 Mb/s chip-ID: 8087:0aa7
  Hub-2: 2-0:1 info: Super-speed hub ports: 8 rev: 3.0 speed: 5 Gb/s chip-ID: 1d6b:0003
Sensors:
  System Temperatures: cpu: 44.0 C mobo: 27.8 C
  Fan Speeds (RPM): N/A
Repos:
  Packages: apt: 2428
  No active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/official-package-repositories.list
    1: deb http: //packages.linuxmint.com vera main upstream import backport
    2: deb http: //archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy main restricted universe multiverse
    3: deb http: //archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-updates main restricted universe multiverse
    4: deb http: //archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-backports main restricted universe multiverse
    5: deb http: //security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ jammy-security main restricted universe multiverse
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/spotify.list
    1: deb http: //repository.spotify.com stable non-free
  Active apt repos in: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/vivaldi.list
    1: deb [arch=amd64] https: //repo.vivaldi.com/stable/deb/ stable main
Info:
  Processes: 293 Uptime: 1m Memory: 11.57 GiB used: 1.83 GiB (15.8%) Init: systemd v: 249
  runlevel: 5 Compilers: gcc: 11.3.0 alt: 11/12 Client: Unknown python3.10 client inxi: 3.3.13
Monitor settings.jpg
I'm really not sure this is worth the time you're spending on it, but thank you. I've read a number of posts where you've helped other people, and I am always impressed with your patience and insightfulness. You're one of the good gals.
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Re: Wondering about monitors

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PaulL wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:54 am No joy, alas! The computer is not young; it was built in 2019, so the BIOS is not all that sophisticated.
A five-year-old computer usually does not have a BIOS because UEFI has been standard for more than a decade. HP ties the hands of users and prevents them from making changes in the firmware (UEFI) settings which is why there is likely not much there. In fact, older HP firmware gave one the option to do more than newer firmware does. Sophistication has nothing to do with it.

Machine:
Type: Desktop System: HP product: HP Pavilion Desktop PC 570-p0xx v: N/A
serial: <superuser required> Chassis: type: 3 serial: <superuser required>
Mobo: HP model: 82F2 v: 00 serial: <superuser required> UEFI: AMI v: F.43 date: 07/01/2019

PaulL wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:54 am I did observe a few things, however:

First, during boot, the HDMI monitor (on the right) starts showing a display about a second before the DP monitor does. But inxi reports the DP monitor as Monitor-1, and the HDMI monitor as Monitor-2. On the other hand, Display Settings shows the HDMI monitor as #1, and the DP monitor as #2, which I have to set as being on the left and being the primary monitor.
I get the impression you did not understand what I wrote in my previous post. I will try again.

There are four stages to the process.
  1. POST (Power On Self Test) is done by the UEFI where it looks for a bootloader.
  2. If the UEFI finds a bootloader, it loads the bootloader (GRUB=GRand Unified Bootloader).
  3. The bootloader loads the operating system either by you selecting an OS or it automatically using the first option in the list.
  4. The operating system loads the desktop environment (Cinnamon). Cinnamon is where you set the Display app settings and determine which is monitor 1 and which is monitor 2.
If the bootloader has not yet loaded the operating system and the operating system has not yet loaded the desktop environment, then why are you expecting the bootloader to use settings from the Display app? It is not possible for stage 1 to know what you have defined in stage 4 because stage 4 does not exist until after stages 2 and 3 have completed. That is why I asked you to check the firmware to see if you could set which connection would be used to display grub.

You have the ability in the Login Window app to set which monitor shows the Login screen (if you log in manually). That login window is part of the operating system (stage 3) and not the desktop environment (stage 4). However, that is also not relevant to where grub displays because it happens after grub has already been called by the firmware.
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Re: Wondering about monitors

Post by PaulL »

You are absolutely right; my picture of which routine was doing what was quite wrong.

A bit of experimenting showed that grub puts the identical display on both my monitors simultaneously. This seems sensible.

The login routine--or whatever routine controls the screen display during login--flips the password-entry box from monitor to monitor, depending on how I move the cursor with my Wacom pen and tablet. I was able to stop this by specifying one of the monitors in the "Monitor" field of the Login Window settings module.

However, the login routine is not picking up the background JPG specified in the "Background" field. I can't figure out why.

The login routine is also mapping the left half of my graphics tablet to the right-hand monitor, and vice versa. I would like to fix this, because it is seriously confusing. This is not the behavior I experienced with previous fresh installs of Linux Mint 21.1 from my live boot thumb drive.

Where is the config file that the login routine--or whatever routine controls the screen display during login--is using? I would like to check it, to be sure it has the correct settings for screen background and tablet-to-screen mapping.

Is it relevant that somewhere in the middle of all this the kernel updated? Should I revert to kernel 5.15.0-72 to see if that fixes things?
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Re: Wondering about monitors

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PaulL wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:29 pmThe login routine--or whatever routine controls the screen display during login--flips the password-entry box from monitor to monitor, depending on how I move the cursor with my Wacom pen and tablet. I was able to stop this by specifying one of the monitors in the "Monitor" field of the Login Window settings module.
If you have changed the setting, then you now know the default was "Auto" which means it could be either.
PaulL wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:29 pmHowever, the login routine is not picking up the background JPG specified in the "Background" field. I can't figure out why.
I suggest you make a new topic for that. It could be a permissions issue on the file. I've had that happen to me on LM20 versions.
PaulL wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:29 pmThe login routine is also mapping the left half of my graphics tablet to the right-hand monitor, and vice versa. I would like to fix this, because it is seriously confusing. This is not the behavior I experienced with previous fresh installs of Linux Mint 21.1 from my live boot thumb drive.
I do not understand what you mean about "previous fresh installs". How many times did you install LM21.1 fresh on this computer :?:
PaulL wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:29 pmWhere is the config file that the login routine--or whatever routine controls the screen display during login--is using? I would like to check it, to be sure it has the correct settings for screen background and tablet-to-screen mapping.
It appears you may be again not understanding the logic and complexity of the processes which run for an operating system.

Your graphics tablet is an input device and while input devices can be mapped to displays, they are still input devices so trying to find something which controls the screen display is not relevant to mapping your tablet. Does the tablet work properly after you log in?
PaulL wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:29 pmIs it relevant that somewhere in the middle of all this the kernel updated? Should I revert to kernel 5.15.0-72 to see if that fixes things?
Fix what? You have named multiple problems which are not necessarily related to each other and, to me, none of them sound like issues related to the kernel.
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Re: Wondering about monitors

Post by PaulL »

Okay, I'll make a new topic about the background JPG issue.
SMG wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:18 pm ...
I do not understand what you mean about "previous fresh installs". How many times did you install LM21.1 fresh on this computer :?:
...
I believe this is the third fresh install, possibly the fourth. I am trying to get a particular program I rely on to work properly under Linux Mint, and one of the options I am exploring is trying to get the Windows version to work under Wine. Occasionally I have needed to reinstall Linux Mint fresh, in order to get a clean install of the application (it's a long and complicated story).
SMG wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:18 pm ...
It appears you may be again not understanding the logic and complexity of the processes which run for an operating system.

Your graphics tablet is an input device and while input devices can be mapped to displays, they are still input devices so trying to find something which controls the screen display is not relevant to mapping your tablet. Does the tablet work properly after you log in?
...
You are right. I certainly do not understand how the connection is made between the movement of my pen across the tablet and the movement of the cursor across the monitors. The term Wacom uses is "mapping" from the tablet to the screen display. I don't know how else to think of it.

But yes, once the login process is over and my desktop gets displayed, the behavior of the tablet and the behavior of the cursor are as expected.
SMG wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:18 pm ...
Fix what? You have named multiple problems which are not necessarily related to each other and, to me, none of them sound like issues related to the kernel.
...
What I want to "fix" is the behavior of the cursor when I move my pen across the login screen. It confuses the heck out of me, and I would like the movement of the cursor to coordinate with the movement of my pen across the tablet. The two things coordinated as expected the other times I installed Linux Mint Cinnamon, so I would like to know what is different this time around, and I'm hoping it's something I can change. If I correctly understand what you are saying, then the recent kernel update is not a factor. That is progress, at least.

Now, under Windows, my approach to this problem of cursor-movement-not-matching-pen-movement would be to identify the routine that is currently running when the issue occurs, and then try to look at how the routine is configured, to see what might be affecting its behavior. I was trying to apply that approach to Linux, but it does not appear to be yielding fruit, since I can't tell what routines are active at that point, nor how they pick up their settings. As you are pointing out to me, I don't even know the right questions to ask. (It's what I expected from moving to a new OS, but that doesn't stop it from being frustrating, lol!)

To me, all the phenomena I've been experiencing appear to be display-related, but if I'm understanding you correctly, you are thinking in very different terms. Please bear in mind, however, that I grew up in the days of IBM-DOS, MS-DOS, and the early days of OS/2 and Windows 3.0, so my thinking has been conditioned over the years to an entirely different approach from what one could call "Linux style." I shall endeavor to get out of that mindset.

Anyway, thank you very much for your patience with this irascible old codger. Your insights have been very helpful so far, and I hope you will continue to be willing to teach me.
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Re: Wondering about monitors

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PaulL wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:42 pmI believe this is the third fresh install, possibly the fourth.
If you are using the same installation usb on the same computer, I do not have any guesses why one install would be different from another with regards to the tablet mapping differently prior to logging into the desktop environment.
PaulL wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:42 pm I certainly do not understand how the connection is made between the movement of my pen across the tablet and the movement of the cursor across the monitors. The term Wacom uses is "mapping" from the tablet to the screen display. I don't know how else to think of it.
I would presume you have used a computer mouse. The Wacom pen and tablet are a replacement for the computer mouse. Instead of moving a mouse across a table or mousepad, you are moving a pen across the tablet.

There are specific drivers for each of the Wacom tablets and their accessories (such as pens). Many of the drivers are already included in the kernel, but with Wacom creating newer technology all the time, there is sometimes a lag to get all the drivers and configuration files into the operating system.
PaulL wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:42 pm What I want to "fix" is the behavior of the cursor when I move my pen across the login screen.
You titled this topic "Wondering about monitors" asking how one is determined to be #1 and the other is #2 and said nothing about your Wacom pen.
PaulL wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:42 pm It confuses the heck out of me, and I would like the movement of the cursor to coordinate with the movement of my pen across the tablet.
You are going to have to provide information about the specific model Wacom you are using (in your new topic; not here). You can check the output of xinput with your tablet attached to get more information. You can also check the Graphics Tablet app to get information.

One key point you are missing with your Windows description is the fact you downloaded/installed Wacom drivers and configuration files onto your Windows install. Windows did not magically know what to do with the input from your Wacom pen. Windows needed information from the hardware manufacturer (Wacom) to know what to do. The same thing is required in Linux-based distros. You just took that part for granted with your Windows install. Many drivers/configuration files need to be reverse-engineered to work on Linux-based distros so that is not something you can take for granted with Linux Mint because many (most?) hardware manufacturers do not provide that for Linux-based distros.
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Re: Wondering about monitors

Post by PaulL »

Under earlier versions of Windows, you needed the driver to make the pen and tablet communicate properly with the OS. Although you could always get some sort of mouse-like behavior, you really needed the driver to make it work really right. Windows 10 is supposed to have native support for graphics tablets, but I had to disable all the Windows Ink settings to get it to work right, and still needed the driver to control some of the settings.

But a recent Windows 10 update caused serious glitches in the behavior of the pen and tablet, which is what pushed me to adopt Linus. (That and Microsoft's crappy Customer Prevention Department.) One of the reasons I picked Mint over other distros is that there is a team of developers who work on integrating Wacom products into Linux Mint. Wacom itself doesn't produce Linux drivers, but they apparently co-operate with the Linux Mint team. I started with MATE because of how the main page on this site described it, but found that some of the glitchy behavior continued. One of the guys in the forum told me about Cinnamon, so I switched. I'm glad I did; with Cinnamon, the pen and tablet behave like a dream. Not all of the fancy features of my model are supported, but I don't use them anyway, but the difference in performance is like night and day, even compared to Windows 10 at its best.

(I will probably end up reinstalling Linux Mint Cinnamon yet again, to remove Wine and some music score software I use. Both are really hard to eradicate once they've been installed. As Pjotr says about fresh reinstalls, "We've all been there!" and by now I've got it down to a routine.)
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Re: Wondering about monitors

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PaulL wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:24 pm One of the reasons I picked Mint over other distros is that there is a team of developers who work on integrating Wacom products into Linux Mint. Wacom itself doesn't produce Linux drivers, but they apparently co-operate with the Linux Mint team.
Wacom support is built into the Linux kernel and is available for most Linux-based distros. The Linux Wacom Project

While Cinnamon has the Graphics Tablet app for setting changes, those using MATE or Xfce can use the xsetwacom command to make settings changes.

I've helped a number of people troubleshoot Wacom functionality so I am familiar with the overall concept/code of how it works in Linux Mint.
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