The Future direction of Linux

[English Invader]

Has anyone considered that the Raspberry Pi might be a future for Linux? I'm actually on a Pi 400 right now and it's been my daily driver for the last couple of weeks. I mostly switch between Raspberry Pi OS, Twister OS and Retropie and I find it wonderful that changing the OS is as simple as swapping out a micro-SD card.

More and more programs are becoming ARM compatible (even Ubuntu can be run on an SBC now) and on Twister OS there is a Wine implementation which in conjunction with an x86 processor emulator can run a few Windows programs (I'm successfully running a BBC Micro emulator in this way).

I can't pretend that a Pi 400 would be a solution to everyone's desktop needs. I'm good with a web browser, a file manager, an office suite and a few video game emulators but that's not everyone.

[MurphCID]

You make some good points here, since I suspect with the example of the Apple M* series chips the ARM wars are just beginning. I think that we are going to be with ARM processors in the future. I think that x86 type processors are getting close to the end of their run, and would suspect that in a decade(?) maybe ARM or a revised Power PC type chip will be what we are using.

[duracell80]

"Soon the most popular 'real' desktop will be the Linux desktop
Microsoft is moving Windows to the cloud and Apple will be happy to have you run macOS on the cloud"

https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/04/ ... /?td=rt-4a

Also Google rolling out an actual Linux distro may tempt more people to look at the real thing if they specifically reveal in branding that it's linux. People try it out with Google, realize it's not all that scary and revive an old computer with LM. To the average user Android wouldn't stick out as being Linux, but a chrome book would.

LaCros or LaX

[spamegg]

You make some good points here, since I suspect with the example of the Apple M* series chips the ARM wars are just beginning. I think that we are going to be with ARM processors in the future. I think that x86 type processors are getting close to the end of their run, and would suspect that in a decade(?) maybe ARM or a revised Power PC type chip will be what we are using.

Don't forget RISCV! Debian just added RISCV 64 as an official platform: https://lists.debian.org/debian-riscv/2 ... 00053.html There are already some prototype SBCs (single board computer) running some sort of Linux (albeit poorly) https://youtu.be/AJVSZEX6d9M?t=521 It'll take a while but it's very promising!

[Lady Fitzgerald]

"Soon the most popular 'real' desktop will be the Linux desktop
Microsoft is moving Windows to the cloud and Apple will be happy to have you run macOS on the cloud"

https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/04/ ... /?td=rt-4a

Also Google rolling out an actual Linux distro may tempt more people to look at the real thing if they specifically reveal in branding that it's linux. People try it out with Google, realize it's not all that scary and revive an old computer with LM. To the average user Android wouldn't stick out as being Linux, but a chrome book would.

LaCros or LaX

I'm not surprised. In fact, I'm surprised it's taking so long. Even well before I switched to Mint, I ditched Adobe when they went full cloud. I've been expecting Microsoft to do the same, especially after Nadella became CEO since, before his promotion, he was the head of Microsoft's cloud development team.

[MurphCID]

You make some good points here, since I suspect with the example of the Apple M* series chips the ARM wars are just beginning. I think that we are going to be with ARM processors in the future. I think that x86 type processors are getting close to the end of their run, and would suspect that in a decade(?) maybe ARM or a revised Power PC type chip will be what we are using.

Don't forget RISCV! Debian just added RISCV 64 as an official platform: https://lists.debian.org/debian-riscv/2 ... 00053.html There are already some prototype SBCs (single board computer) running some sort of Linux (albeit poorly) https://youtu.be/AJVSZEX6d9M?t=521 It'll take a while but it's very promising!

This is a pretty exciting development, and I want to see where it goes. Also I suspect with Google releasing/getting close to releasing a desktop Linux distribution that also might get some of the Chromebook crowd to start switching, especially if Google keeps releasing Chromebook style laptops. But I am somewhat concerned that the increasing corporate level of involvement might foreshadow a repeat of the Unix Wars and the fragmentation of Linux.

[rossdv8]

. . . Also Google rolling out an actual Linux distro may tempt more people to look at the real thing if they specifically reveal in branding that it's linux. People try it out with Google, realize it's not all that scary and revive an old computer with LM. To the average user Android wouldn't stick out as being Linux, but a chrome book would.

Considering that if I recall correctly, ChromeOS was designed to be a cloud OS, and a lot of Linux users worked all sorts of hacks to get Linux working properly on the early ChromeBooks, then when Chromebooks started appearing under various brands that had Intel processors, we had lots of Linux distros that could run on ChromeBooks.

I suspect that Google has realised they are losing a lot of revenue from ChromeBooks that are not running ChromeOS, because Linux is essentially Google free. So if Google can create a Google Linus, with the right balance of Trackers, and Ad Serving built into the core - they might just be on the right track to get that ChromeBook niche mob of new users back again.
That of course, will lead to those people realising that Linux is actually a lot like their Smart Phone OS.
That 'might' lead to more people trying out Linux on the Desktop.

Last weekend I had a MS Surface Pro donated to me to test a Tablet that could run Linux (because it has an i3 processor.
While Linux booted and ran, it could not recognise 'ANY' of my Bluetooth keyboards. I only tried Mint and Pop OS because I know they are supposed to work with the Surface Pro.
I modified Windows 10 enough that I could use it, and it was pleasant. Until it WASN'T !Popups, lots of Antivirus adverts. A LinkedIn popup that comes over and over again.

I've fixed most of it - but that's not how an OS should be.

On the other hand, I would have thought Mint at least, would work. I have it running on a Lenovo Yoda convertible tablet. Similar chipset, but different nuts and bolts.

At least I was reminded why I hated Windows since the turn of the century, and why I've only run Linux since 1998. But for now, I can only run Windows on that tablet!

As much as I hate the thought - Linux still has a way to go. But the future looks good now that it runs on a lot of ARM systems, and Macs.

[MurphCID]

Ross (and others) I agree. If Google can get a Google Linux up and running on Chromebook hardware, it might take some of Microsoft's market share, and once that starts happening, is it possible that Microsoft will re-base Windows on a Linux kernel in order to save market share? I can see Google taking a shot a Apple and Microsoft with a Google Linux. The issue is, will this cause more fragmentation in the community with competing standards almost like how Unix ended up so fragmented and with so many no compatible variants?

[SMG]

Last weekend I had a MS Surface Pro donated to me to test a Tablet that could run Linux (because it has an i3 processor.
While Linux booted and ran, it could not recognise 'ANY' of my Bluetooth keyboards. I only tried Mint and Pop OS because I know they are supposed to work with the Surface Pro.

Did you check to see if you can use Linux Kernel for Surface Devices?

Surface devices are Windows hardware so it often takes special changes to make it work.

[rossdv8]

Surface devices are Windows hardware so it often takes special changes to make it work.

Of course I did. Being a Linux Tech for over 20 years (including support for friends since I closed my business) one tends to check that sort of thing. In my dotage, I don't always remember everything - but once in a while I do keep up with the game.
This particular Surface Pro is the 4MB RAM, 64MB Storage, so that's a strike against it. That Neither Linux distro that I tried (Mint being one) managed to find 'any' of three Blueteeth keyboards I had available (all worked flawlessly in Windows 10) and only having access to a Surface docking keyboard for a day, meant coming up with an alternative.
The alternative was to see if my Wireless Keyboard was detected. Of course, the Wireless dongle had to go into the USB port, meaning there was no room for the Live USB stick. And while I still have a non-powered USB hub, I not longer work on other peopled' computers, which means I only really use powered hubs these days.
My non-powered USB hub is 'somewhere safe ! And these days I seldom remember whether I ate today . .

So I did find, read and bookmark the info about the Surface Kernel, but I really think if I decide to run Linux on one of those things, I might wait and grab the 8 GB RAM, 256GB Storage model for a couple of hundred bucks. They are all over the place lately.

That way I can brick one and still have a working altternative while I decide how to fix it.

However - and sort of back on topic(ish).
I booted Yoda for the first time in a year or so, and flipped it into Tablet mode, then upgraded to Mint 21.2.

A couple of observations:
- The Lenovo Yoda touchscreen response and resolution is not as fine as the Surface pro.
- Mint 21.2 OnBoard keyboard is far nicer and works a good deal better than the one that comes standard on the Surface Pro. It also looks nicer and has features that leave the Microsoft offering for dead.
- Mint's File Managers and Image Viewers are far better than ANYTHING I could find in the Microsoft Store.
- I don;t use Cinnamon, but although some people think Xfce is a little bit 'tired', it was so much nicer to use Mint Xfce on a Lenovo Tablet, than Windows 10 on a similar sized (12") Tablet.
- Battery life was abysmal under Linux, but the Lenovo Yoda had a bad battery under Windows when I bought it very second hand and very beat up. Replacing the battery did little to improve it. So I don't think the problem there is Linux. I think it is Yoda.

What I did learn from this though, is that while Windows might 'look flash' and while it definitely does some things right - there are lots of things that Linux now does far better than Linux.
Case in point: Windows Screen Fonts. While it is possible to 'sort of' change 'some' Windows 10 fonts on the Surface (and from what I read, on the Desktop), it is nearly impossible to change the fonts in Windows File Explorer. The fonts in some of the panes, and text under file icons - yes. But the fonts in the Menu, File, View etc. etc. No way. They stay almost microscopic, whether you choose to change 'Text' or change 'Everything'.

That means trying to tap something a sixteenth of a ninsh high, with a one inch fingertip. Even 'Scaling' doesn't work, because then everything else is out of whack. And it's not just me. The experts can't find a solution either - and Microsoft just suggest people should live with it.
There were no such problems with Mint on the Lenovo touch screen in tablet mode. Everything that we can do on the desktop or laptop 'just works'.

So that sort of thing is another example of Linux heading in the right direction.
If Mr Google does do a Linux distro, it wouldn't surprise me if, as some people have already suggested, Microsoft decide to go in that direction too.

[MurphCID]

With some thoughts on Ross's post above, for functional purposes are tablets dead, and not something worth the time to install Linux on? Could it be that the Raspberry Pi type devices will evolve so that Linux is workable on low powered hardware?

[English Invader]

With some thoughts on Ross's post above, for functional purposes are tablets dead, and not something worth the time to install Linux on? Could it be that the Raspberry Pi type devices will evolve so that Linux is workable on low powered hardware?

I knew someone who used an iPad as a laptop. She had an accessory that basically added a keyboard and turned it into a laptop. It was good enough for everything she needed to run her business so I don't see any reason why that couldn't be done with a Samsung/LG/Whatever tablet and a Linux OS.

[MurphCID]

I have been watching videos on the Unix Wars, the fall of Sun, SGI, and other big end Unix workstation builders. How it was Sun vs At&t and others in the Open Software Foundation, which gave Microsoft it wedge to take over the market. I am worried the current Linux issues with Red Hat, and others could cause damage to Linux as a brand and operating system.

[rossdv8]

I knew someone who used an iPad as a laptop. She had an accessory that basically added a keyboard and turned it into a laptop. It was good enough for everything she needed to run her business so I don't see any reason why that couldn't be done with a Samsung/LG/Whatever tablet and a Linux OS.

The Surface Pro has a combined docking Keyboard / Cover that does exactly that, which is one of my reasons for diving down this partcular bunny warren. I've looked at various attempts (some of them sort of successful) to turn an ARM or similar tablet into a Linux tablet.
I also acquired the Lenovo Yoda. Some Yodas swivel and flip the keyboard to make them into convertible Tablet / Notebooks' and some, like mine simply fold through 180 degrees so the keyboard is on the back. Yoda shifts the keyboard a little so it locks the keys and shuts off the trackpad - so I can't accidentally operate those.

The disadvantage with Yoda is the mass of the thing. It is just a pain having allthat hardware when all i want to do is read a large format book - like a book in PDF format, with images, and to be able to read the text.
With a 10" tablet it is almost impossible. With a 12" tablet it is pretty good.

Since the Surface Pro is about 12.4", and the keyboard is optional, it is an excellent reading / movie watching device.
Its other advantage is that like Yoda - it runs Intel processors (from i3 to i7) and has varying amounts of RAM and Storage.
I only have mine because my son bought one cheap, without a Keyboard that had and i5 processor, 8GB RAM and 256GB storage. Then he decided he wanted a keyboard and a stylus pen that are available as options.

The one he got with those bits was this one, with an i3 processor, 4GB RAM and 64GB storage, so he passed this one to me, and kept the bits he wanted.
Which is why I am on this little journey.

As SMG pointed out yesterday - there's a kernel available for the Surface, and I had looked into that - but I decided to:
1) Persevere with Windows on this one for now and learn what works and whether I like the thing generally, as well as see what the battery life is like.
2) Grab some cheap components like an aftermarket docking keyboard - just because. I'm actually waiting for the courier to drop one now.
3) Find where 'Safe' is. Because I know that's where my old non-powered USB 3 hub is. I've actually got another USB 2 hub but that is also somewhere 'Safe'.
It seems USB hubs are a bit like 'pairs' of socks. I always know there's one somewhere . .

My guess is that if I can find that USB hub, I should be able to run a USB Wireless donger and whatevere USB stick I might need, to install the kernel, and then install Linux on the Surface. Then, if I don;t brick it, I might grab an 8GB / 256GB Surface Pro with the i5 processor while they are cheap as chips ex-corporate / refurbished.

And just like that - the Aussie Post courier delivered my Amazon package with the new Surface pro compatible keyboard.
And Just like Australia Post - the 2 foot by foot and a half by ankle package was all beat up. And on sliting the Amazon packaging tape - there was a lot of fresh air - around a slim previously opened and roughly sealed box - with a well worn, marked, slightly dirty keyboard and a staple between the keyboard and the inside packaging. And lots of flecks of what looked like dandruff and some tiny bits of other 'stuff'

So that's all sitting back in the boxes it came from waiting to go back to Amazon, along with a suggestion that if something is 'Used' it shoud not appear on the website as Condition: New . .
Pity - Amazon are usually not too bad.

So back on-topic:
Linux on ARM is also going ahead rapidly with more new devices working almost weekly.
Raspberry Pi and almost all the Pi Clones are running Linux, with Windows as an option.
It is just a shame that I can't get Linux for my older 10 inch Tablets. Like the Motorola Xooms that I have lying around, still in great order, and with massive 12V batteries that run forever,
Or my Samsung galaxy tab 2 10.1" that had such a lovely screen and was only held back by Android doing stupid things - then no longer being updated.
And as I mentioned previously - my ASUS Transformer. A delightful 10 inch Tablet that I suspect was what Microsoft may have used as the idea for the early Surface Tablets.

All just scrap because there's no operating system currently available - but all sttill in perfect working condition otherwise!

I reckon now that Chromebooks have moved away from the Run in Chrome Browser - and 'need to be connected to the Internet' to do anything useful, model, to what they seems to be now - reasonably useful little devices, Linux might continue to make good inroads into that space.

[kaneorabel]

Microsoft (Windows) is just killing itself with its decisions and people are realising this more and more only that this time really good distributions like Linux Mint are waiting for them to pick up them up. And they stay.

Ubuntu is becoming increasingly unattractive because it is cozying up to Microsoft and also putting out feelers towards Google. One can assume that Canonical's economic interests are increasing.

Linux bases its development decisions on what's going to improve the user experience.

Microsoft seems to have decided, it's going to leverage it's dominant market position to force its users into things they believe are in their best corporate interest, but are to the detriment of their users. If you look at what Windows has produced following Windows 7, there really hasn't been much added to improve the user experience imo.

Honestly, I never really found Ubuntu all that appealing and especially now as they test the waters with Microsoft and Google. I switched to Linux to get away from Microsoft and Google because they're both predatory and don't respect their users.

In terms of where I think Linux is going, I see popular distros like Debian, Arch, Mint, Pop!_OS becoming more popular. I think overall Linux will embrace more solutions that allow software to run across many distros. I anticipate a widening schism between popular distros that are more "old school" in their orthodoxy and the newer more easy to use distros. I think over time you'll see these newer distros grow in popularity, eventually becoming more popular than the distros they're downstream from. I think it's that space where you're going to see a lot of new distros and innovations. It will be interesting because you can't have the latter distros without the former.

I also think the big proprietary players are really looking forward to the day when they make the move from the CPU to SoCs. In a lot of ways I think much of what we're seeing from them now, is a bridge to that. What that's going to mean for Linux, I don't really know.

[rossdv8]

I also think the big proprietary players are really looking forward to the day when they make the move from the CPU to SoCs. In a lot of ways I think much of what we're seeing from them now, is a bridge to that. What that's going to mean for Linux, I don't really know.

Agreed One of the big things Raspberry Pi foundation did for Linux, was to help make Linux an ARM SOC 'thing'. Not only do we find lots of Linux distros with a Raspberry Pi release ( I have several for my most recent Pi4B), but with the proliferation of ARM based Raspberry Pi 'clones' running various ARM SOCs, there are Linux distros that run on most of them.

Debian has ports for a number of ARM chips, 32 and 64 bit, and I saw recently there are even ports for some of the more recent MacBooks running M1 processors (also ARM based).

On top of that, we have heaps of SBCs with Intel chipsets on them that are only around the size of Raspberry Pis, but with more performance than most of us had on Desktop systems years ago. Even looking at the shelf belos my 55 insh monitor, I can see all lined up line (among the multiple powered USB hubs and about 20 assorted USB HDDs and SSDs) two PCs about the physical size of a Mac Mini, one NMUC clone, and one of the Raspberry Pis. Accessible from a single keyboard and mouse via VNC.

I wish I'd had all this tech available in the years form 1971 to now. But then, I've been amazed at the changes I've seen in computing in only the 50 years I've been involved. I only wish I'd been a bit smarter and studied more.
My son is probably going to see the advent of Quantum Computers on the Desktop !!

I just had to laugh at myself.
I just counted 5 assorted 10 inch Android tablets, all in perfect working order but only one of which is 'functional' because Android has stopped OS (and therefore App) updates for all the others.
I also have one 12 inch Linux tablet (convertible Yoda) running mint 21.2, and the Surface Pro - stuck on Windows 10 for now.

And I'm still tempted to acquire one of the new high end raspberry Pi sized systems Just to see where Linux is going . .
(Some of us N E V E R seem to learn)

[ivar]

It is just a shame that I can't get Linux for my older 10 inch Tablets. Like the Motorola Xooms that I have lying around, still in great order, and with massive 12V batteries that run forever,
Or my Samsung galaxy tab 2 10.1" that had such a lovely screen and was only held back by Android doing stupid things - then no longer being updated.
And as I mentioned previously - my ASUS Transformer. A delightful 10 inch Tablet that I suspect was what Microsoft may have used as the idea for the early Surface Tablets.

All just scrap because there's no operating system currently available - but all sttill in perfect working condition otherwise!

Interesting, I also got a stack of Galaxy Tab 2 10.1's collecting dust. Last used as a spotify remote control. Last time I tried installing spotify on one I had to jump thru several hoops to install an old version manually. I recall it kinda worked

I also had one of those ASUS transformer pad with the keyboard/battery addition. Tried getting used to it for daily stuff, but with 20 years of ctrl-c/crtl-v muscle memory didn't work out, lol!

Ross, which Yoga unit you got there?

I scrounged the bins at work, so I have several. Around 4-5 Lenovo Yoga 2, 13.3" with i5 + 4GB Ram (writing this on one now)
2 Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga 12's - 12" , i7 , 8GB ram , used for testing purposes - OS / app deployments etc
1 Lenovo Thinkpad yoga 260 , 12,6" , i7, 8GB, used for configuring switches and stuff

With some thoughts on Ross's post above, for functional purposes are tablets dead, and not something worth the time to install Linux on? Could it be that the Raspberry Pi type devices will evolve so that Linux is workable on low powered hardware?

I'd say tablets are becoming a niche product. We had those above mentioned yoga's at work, cant recall the exact amount but I never saw anyone use them as anything other that a regular laptop
The tablet functionality on my yoga2 seems to work just fine, but I only use the touch screen for scrolling maps etc. Guess it should work for graphics too hadn't it been for the poor pc is resource starved already
We just got 1 new hire now though, she specifically asked for a laptop with 2-in-1 functionality to work onscreen with math formulas etc.

So Murph, to satisfy your tinkering needs, I'd say find some cheap yoga or similar on ebay and see for yourself if you can make use of it. Worst case, use it as a regular laptop, lol!

[MurphCID]

If I get another computer, the Spouse Unit will really hurt me.

Now ARM and RISC-V look to promise that Linux will move in a new and very interesting direction. The other thing is it looks like Wayland might possibly be getting ready for general use. I wonder if it would be a good idea to port Compiz to Wayland?

[billyswong]

I wonder if it would be a good idea to port Compiz to Wayland?

There is the Wayfire project. https://github.com/WayfireWM

It is supposed to be the Compiz on Wayland. I don't know how feature complete it is though.

[spamegg]

I wonder if it would be a good idea to port Compiz to Wayland?

We should keep Compiz alive, so we can continue to enjoy our wobbly windows!
Compiz shall live!