Mint 22 open thread

[MurphCID]

I just read the latest blog post by Clem. I am very reassured with the comments on gtk3 vs gtk4 and the issues the the team has discovered which again assures me that the excellent mint experience will continue. But I can see where the team either forks gtk or is forced to another toolbox as gnome/gtk starts diverging too far and makes using gtk too onerous to most Linux distributions not using gnome.

Thanks for the update Mint team.

[spamegg]

What I want for Mint 22:

A mechanism that prevents users from destroying their systems by messing with Python. Just today I've seen yet another poor soul unable to use their desktop because they installed Python. (Sure it's "user error" but most users have no idea.)

This is supposed to come in the next stable / LTS releases https://www.linuxuprising.com/2023/03/n ... ikely.html and is a good place to start, but not enough. pip is not the only source of the problem. There needs to be some kind of general warning about installing other Python versions too.

[MurphCID]

The Python thing completely missed my radar, since I don't ever mess with stuff like that (I never get that far under the hood). Good point though. I would also love a GUI System monitor like Windows Task Manager where you could also see and kill processes after entering your sudo password.

[AndyMH]

A mechanism that prevents users from destroying their systems by messing with Python.

+1, not a python fan, but too many posts on that issue that you usually respond to and try to fix.

[motoryzen]

I would also love a GUI System monitor like Windows Task Manager where you could also see and kill processes after entering your sudo password.

gnome-system-monitor doesn't let you accomplish that?

[MurphCID]

I would also love a GUI System monitor like Windows Task Manager where you could also see and kill processes after entering your sudo password.

gnome-system-monitor doesn't let you accomplish that?

Not to the level I want, and I really like the Microsoft Windows implementation.

[motoryzen]

Hmm..

https://alternativeto.net/software/task ... form=linux

Perhaps Stacer, Glances, System Monitoring Center, or StatusPilatus?

[BenTrabetere]

There needs to be some kind of general warning about installing other Python versions too.

+1
I would not be opposed to the general warning followed by a Hīc sunt dracōnēs¹ warning.

¹ "Here be dragons"

[t42]

A mechanism that prevents users from destroying their systems by messing with Python.

You better let people have some fun. But it is already implemented. Here is today's output of my trixie system:

Code: Select all

┌──2023-10-09 18:22:06 @ ~
└─$ pip install --upgrade yt-dlp
error: externally-managed-environment

× This environment is externally managed
╰─> To install Python packages system-wide, try apt install
    python3-xyz, where xyz is the package you are trying to
    install.
    
    If you wish to install a non-Debian-packaged Python package,
    create a virtual environment using python3 -m venv path/to/venv.
    Then use path/to/venv/bin/python and path/to/venv/bin/pip. Make
    sure you have python3-full installed.
    
    If you wish to install a non-Debian packaged Python application,
    it may be easiest to use pipx install xyz, which will manage a
    virtual environment for you. Make sure you have pipx installed.
    
    See /usr/share/doc/python3.11/README.venv for more information.

note: If you believe this is a mistake, please contact your Python installation or OS distribution provider. You can override this, at the risk of breaking your Python installation or OS, by passing --break-system-packages.
hint: See PEP 668 for the detailed specification.
┌──2023-10-09 18:22:52 @ ~
└─$ pip install --upgrade --break-system-packages yt-dlp
Defaulting to user installation because normal site-packages is not writeable
Requirement already satisfied: yt-dlp in /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages (2023.3.4)
Collecting yt-dlp
  Downloading yt_dlp-2023.10.7-py2.py3-none-any.whl (3.1 MB)
     ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━ 3.1/3.1 MB 1.0 MB/s eta 0:00:00
Requirement already satisfied: mutagen in /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages (from yt-dlp) (1.46.0)
Requirement already satisfied: pycryptodomex in /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages (from yt-dlp) (3.11.0)
Requirement already satisfied: websockets in /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages (from yt-dlp) (10.4)
Requirement already satisfied: certifi in /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages (from yt-dlp) (2022.9.24)
Requirement already satisfied: brotli in /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages (from yt-dlp) (1.0.9)
Installing collected packages: yt-dlp
  WARNING: The script yt-dlp is installed in '/home/mf/.local/bin' which is not on PATH.
  Consider adding this directory to PATH or, if you prefer to suppress this warning, use --no-warn-script-location.
Successfully installed yt-dlp-2023.10.7

[ivar]

What I want for Mint 22:

A mechanism that prevents users from destroying their systems by messing with Python.

I have a handful teachers asking for Python to be installed on their machines - but also Anaconda and Pycharm.

.. just waiting for things to blow up, lol!

XKCD:

[spamegg]

I have a handful teachers asking for Python to be installed on their machines - but also Anaconda and Pycharm.

.. just waiting for things to blow up, lol!

Yeah... Been there, done that!

PyEnv really seems to be the only reasonable option as far as I can see (even venv stuff is kind of a pain), at the cost of some disk space. It's isolated from the system and you have to manually enable it in each shell session to use, or point your IDE to it. It lets you install Anaconda too.

Poetry is great but it's fairly technical (pyproject.toml files, project management etc). Python's entry barrier is a bit too low for that. In general it's a good idea to move away from "system-wide installation with package managers and such" and towards "individual project-based installation with build tools and such". Again, at the cost of some disk space.

Anyway, a bit off-topic, sorry about that. Please continue about Mint 22!

[t42]

The Python base environments is already "externally managed" in LMDE6 as well. I believe such comprehensive warning should be sufficient:

[spamegg]

That's what I'm talking about! Excellent

I wish there was also something about "do not manually install other Python versions". Python attracts a lot of beginners, who are still on the "I must get the latest, system-wide" mindset, and they can easily wreck their system, especially with update-alternatives or source installs.

EDIT: case in point, just this morning I saw 4 Python install related topics with serious problems...

[spamegg]

(As the day went I ran into 2 more Python-related posts )

Something else I want:

git, build-essential, curl should be installed by default. I believe wget is installed but not curl right?

EDIT: I think curl is also installed by default.

[wwblm]

Clearly I am one of the noobs who could get into trouble with Python. However, I am curious as to why or if perhaps I already have without knowing it? To the best of my knowledge, I have not tried to install any Python on my Mint 21.2 system. However, there is Python3 with the version Python 3.10.12
reported. Seems to me that Python is already installed by default. Is this Python3 incompatible with stuff so people try to install a different version to get their scripts to work? Or, did I install something that put Python3 on my computer without my understanding or recollection?

[all41]

List of python3 packages installed by default with Mint 21.2:

Code: Select all

  •  python3.10 3.10.6-1~22.04.2ubuntu1.1
  •  python3.10-minimal 3.10.6-1~22.04.2ubuntu1.1
  •  python3 3.10.6-1~22.04
  •  python3-apport 2.20.11-0ubuntu82.5
  •  python3-apt 2.4.0ubuntu1
  •  python3-aptdaemon 1.1.1+bzr982-0ubuntu39mint1
  •  python3-aptdaemon.gtk3widgets 1.1.1+bzr982-0ubuntu39mint1
  •  python3-blinker 1.4+dfsg1-0.4
  •  python3-brlapi:amd64 6.4-4ubuntu3
  •  python3-bs4 4.10.0-2
  •  python3-cairo:amd64 1.20.1-3build1
  •  python3-caja 1.26.0-1
  •  python3-certifi 2020.6.20-1
  •  python3-cffi-backend:amd64 1.15.0-1build2
  •  python3-chardet 4.0.0-1
  •  python3-click 8.0.3-1
  •  python3-colorama 0.4.4-1
  •  python3-commandnotfound 22.04.0
  •  python3-compizconfig:amd64 1:0.9.14.1+22.04.20220820-0ubuntu1
  •  python3-configobj 5.0.6-5
  •  python3-cryptography 3.4.8-1ubuntu2
  •  python3-cups:amd64 2.0.1-5build1
  •  python3-cupshelpers 1.5.16-0ubuntu3
  •  python3-dbus 1.2.18-3build1
  •  python3-debconf 1.5.79ubuntu1
  •  python3-debian 0.1.43ubuntu1
  •  python3-defer 1.0.6-2.1ubuntu1
  •  python3-distro 1.7.0-1
  •  python3-eyed3 0.8.10-4
  •  python3-filelock 3.6.0-1
  •  python3-gdbm:amd64 3.10.6-1~22.04
  •  python3-gi 3.42.1-0ubuntu1
  •  python3-gi-cairo 3.42.1-0ubuntu1
  •  python3-gnupg 0.4.8-1
  •  python3-grpcio 1.30.2-3build6
  •  python3-httplib2 0.20.2-2
  •  python3-icu 2.8.1-0ubuntu2
  •  python3-idna 3.3-1
  •  python3-ifaddr 0.1.7-1
  •  python3-imdbpy 2021.04.18-3
  •  python3-importlib-metadata 4.6.4-1
  •  python3-jeepney 0.7.1-3
  •  python3-jwt 2.3.0-1ubuntu0.2
  •  python3-keyring 23.5.0-1
  •  python3-launchpadlib 1.10.16-1
  •  python3-lazr.restfulclient 0.14.4-1
  •  python3-lazr.uri 1.0.6-2
  •  python3-ldb 2:2.4.4-0ubuntu0.22.04.2
  •  python3-louis 3.20.0-2ubuntu0.2
  •  python3-macaroonbakery 1.3.1-2ubuntu0.1
  •  python3-magic 2:0.4.24-2
  •  python3-mako 1.1.3+ds1-2ubuntu0.1
  •  python3-markupsafe 2.0.1-2build1
  •  python3-minimal 3.10.6-1~22.04
  •  python3-more-itertools 8.10.0-2
  •  python3-nacl 1.5.0-2
  •  python3-netaddr 0.8.0-2
  •  python3-netifaces:amd64 0.11.0-1build2
  •  python3-oauthlib 3.2.0-1ubuntu0.1
  •  python3-packaging 21.3-1
  •  python3-pam 0.4.2-13.4build4
  •  python3-parted 3.11.7-1build1
  •  python3-pexpect 4.8.0-2ubuntu1
  •  python3-pil:amd64 9.0.1-1ubuntu0.1
  •  python3-pkg-resources 59.6.0-1.2ubuntu0.22.04.1
  •  python3-problem-report 2.20.11-0ubuntu82.5
  •  python3-protobuf 3.12.4-1ubuntu7.22.04.1
  •  python3-psutil 5.9.0-1build1
  •  python3-ptyprocess 0.7.0-3
  •  python3-pyatspi 2.38.2-1
  •  python3-pycurl 7.44.1-4build1
  •  python3-pyelftools 0.27-1
  •  python3-pyinotify 0.9.6-1.3
  •  python3-pymacaroons 0.13.0-4
  •  python3-pyparsing 2.4.7-1
  •  python3-reportlab 3.6.8-1ubuntu0.1
  •  python3-reportlab-accel:amd64 3.6.8-1ubuntu0.1
  •  python3-requests 2.25.1+dfsg-2ubuntu0.1
  •  python3-requests-file 1.5.1-1
  •  python3-rfc3339 1.1-3
  •  python3-samba 2:4.15.13+dfsg-0ubuntu1.1
  •  python3-secretstorage 3.3.1-1
  •  python3-setproctitle:amd64 1.2.2-2build1
  •  python3-six 1.16.0-3ubuntu1
  •  python3-soupsieve 2.3.1-1
  •  python3-speechd 0.11.1-1ubuntu2
  •  python3-systemd 234-3ubuntu2
  •  python3-talloc:amd64 2.3.3-2build1
  •  python3-tdb 1.4.5-2build1
  •  python3-tinycss2 1.1.1-2
  •  python3-tldextract 3.1.2-1
  •  python3-tz 2022.1-1ubuntu0.22.04.1
  •  python3-unidecode 1.3.3-1
  •  python3-uno 1:7.3.7-0ubuntu0.22.04.3
  •  python3-urllib3 1.26.5-1~exp1
  •  python3-wadllib 1.3.6-1
  •  python3-webencodings 0.5.1-4
  •  python3-xapp 2.4.1
  •  python3-xdg 0.27-2
  •  python3-xkit 0.5.0ubuntu5
  •  python3-xlib 0.29-1
  •  python3-xlrd 1.2.0-2
  •  python3-yaml 5.4.1-1ubuntu1
  •  python3-zipp 1.0.0-3 

Easy to see why changing versions is a train collision

[spamegg]

Is this Python3 incompatible with stuff so people try to install a different version to get their scripts to work? Or, did I install something that put Python3 on my computer without my understanding or recollection?

It is installed by default yes. A lot of OS functionality (the desktop environment, and a lot of utilities like Update Manager, Software Manager, Firewall Configuration, etc.) depend on it.

People install older or newer versions of Python that override the system version, or older or newer versions of Python modules, that override the ones that the system relies on.

People do this for various reasons:
- they just mess around,
- they blindly follow tutorials and type commands into the Terminal without thinking,
- they come from Windows and are obsessed with updating everything manually to the latest version to feel "safe" and "complete",
- they don't know that Python is already installed, so they get it from the official website and install from source,
- they want to do some beginner programming,
- their scripts don't work so they need a different version,
etc.

[revmacian]

What I want for Mint 22:

A mechanism that prevents users from destroying their systems by messing with Python. Just today I've seen yet another poor soul unable to use their desktop because they installed Python. (Sure it's "user error" but most users have no idea.)

This is supposed to come in the next stable / LTS releases https://www.linuxuprising.com/2023/03/n ... ikely.html and is a good place to start, but not enough. pip is not the only source of the problem. There needs to be some kind of general warning about installing other Python versions too.

I'm not sure that's a good thing. Holding someone's hand and preventing them from making a mistake does keep them safe, but it robs them of the opportunity of learning from a mistake. Having to live with the consequences of a mistake helps one to learn to avoid making that mistake in the future.. it also helps one to learn how to troubleshoot problems. How do we gain experience, trial and error? The scientific method itself is done by finding out what works and what doesn't work. If we prevent people from making mistakes then we have no growth or improvement.. and we end up with a society of snowflakes who panic at the first sign of difficulty.

[Night Wing]

What I would like to see in Mint 22. A much faster download speed for the Firefox browser.

When I first see the update for Firefox, it usually is a 10-20 minute wait for the download to complete. No matter what the fastest mirror I switch to, even if it is 4 MB per second, it still is a 10-20 minute wait for the download to complete due to the 30-60 KB per second speed. After that, the install takes about 5 seconds of time.

So I no longer do the update when I first see it. I do the update in the late evening on the day Firefox updates to the newest version when the download speed takes about 10 seconds.

On a side note. MX Linux does not have this download speed problem with Firefox when the update for the newest version for it shows up.

[all41]

What I would like to see in Mint 22. A much faster download speed for the Firefox browser.

When I first see the update for Firefox, it usually is a 10-20 minute wait for the download to complete. No matter what the fastest mirror I switch to, even if it is 4 MB per second, it still is a 10-20 minute wait for the download to complete due to the 30-60 KB per second speed. After that, the install takes about 5 seconds of time.

So I no longer do the update when I first see it. I do the update in the late evening on the day Firefox updates to the newest version when the download speed takes about 10 seconds.

On a side note. MX Linux does not have this download speed problem with Firefox when the update for the newest version for it shows up.

When FF updates are listed the Mint servers are huffing and puffing due to automatic updates.
When slow I usually defer this update for a day or so