All Windows Managers Flawed - Solutions to any combination are welcome!

[Quincunx55555]

This started with me using the default windows manager after install, which was "Marco + Compositing". However, randomly, my task bar would go invisible (something I would classify as a 'showstopper' defect). My only solution at the time was to logout and back in. Well, that got old, and I saw forum posts about changing window managers.

Well, that solved the vanishing bar, but the other windows managers introduced lag. Typing in Xed or CLI was a joke. Constant lag in the display of what I had typed. Also, a defect that is 100% not acceptable.

So I switched to Compiz, which has some great effects. I don't like how every window opens at 0,0, but that's a minor issue in return for a working OS. However, whenever I see that I have an update, and click the shield icon with the orange dot, nothing happens. I can use the menu system to open "Update Manager" just fine, but Compiz won't display/launch it from the panel.

If anyone has a solution for ANY of the three issues described, I'm all ears! At this point, I'm thinking Linux Mint might have jumped the shark, since none of the canned windows managers works properly, and my touchpad went wonky after an update. The idea bums me out since I've been using Mint ever since Ubuntu updated to Gnome 2 before it was finished baking.

[Schultz]

I highly doubt that Mint has, to use your words, "jumped the shark," since I haven't seen any other threads describing the same type of problem you're having. How about posting the results of inxi -Fxz back here so those who can help have a starting point to work with.

[Quincunx55555]

Code: Select all

me@chiron:~$ inxi -Fxz
System:
  Kernel: 5.15.0-91-generic x86_64 bits: 64 compiler: gcc v: 11.4.0
    Desktop: MATE 1.26.0 Distro: Linux Mint 21.3 Virginia
    base: Ubuntu 22.04 jammy
Machine:
  Type: Laptop System: Dell product: XPS 15 9500 v: N/A
    serial: <superuser required>
  Mobo: Dell model: 0RHXRG v: A03 serial: <superuser required> UEFI: Dell
    v: 1.22.0 date: 03/16/2023
Battery:
  ID-1: BAT0 charge: 64.5 Wh (100.0%) condition: 64.5/84.3 Wh (76.5%)
    volts: 12.7 min: 11.4 model: SMP DELL 70N2F95 status: Full
CPU:
  Info: 6-core model: Intel Core i7-10750H bits: 64 type: MT MCP
    arch: Comet Lake rev: 2 cache: L1: 384 KiB L2: 1.5 MiB L3: 12 MiB
  Speed (MHz): avg: 2130 high: 2285 min/max: 800/5000 cores: 1: 2100
    2: 2100 3: 2102 4: 2136 5: 2100 6: 2100 7: 2150 8: 2045 9: 2098 10: 2285
    11: 2197 12: 2157 bogomips: 62399
  Flags: avx avx2 ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx
Graphics:
  Device-1: Intel CometLake-H GT2 [UHD Graphics] vendor: Dell driver: i915
    v: kernel bus-ID: 00:02.0
  Device-2: NVIDIA TU117M [GeForce GTX 1650 Ti Mobile] vendor: Dell
    driver: nvidia v: 525.147.05 bus-ID: 01:00.0
  Device-3: Realtek Integrated_Webcam_HD type: USB driver: uvcvideo
    bus-ID: 1-11:4
  Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 1.21.1.4 driver: X:
    loaded: modesetting,nvidia unloaded: fbdev,nouveau,vesa gpu: i915
    resolution: 1920x1200~60Hz
  OpenGL: renderer: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 Ti/PCIe/SSE2
    v: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 525.147.05 direct render: Yes
Audio:
  Device-1: Intel Comet Lake PCH cAVS vendor: Dell driver: snd_hda_intel
    v: kernel bus-ID: 00:1f.3
  Sound Server-1: ALSA v: k5.15.0-91-generic running: yes
  Sound Server-2: PulseAudio v: 15.99.1 running: yes
  Sound Server-3: PipeWire v: 0.3.48 running: yes
Network:
  Device-1: Intel Comet Lake PCH CNVi WiFi vendor: Rivet Networks
    driver: iwlwifi v: kernel bus-ID: 00:14.3
  IF: wlp0s20f3 state: up mac: <filter>
Bluetooth:
  Device-1: Intel AX201 Bluetooth type: USB driver: btusb v: 0.8
    bus-ID: 1-14:6
  Report: hciconfig ID: hci0 rfk-id: 0 state: up address: <filter>
    bt-v: 3.0 lmp-v: 5.2
Drives:
  Local Storage: total: 2.29 TiB used: 1.45 TiB (63.6%)
  ID-1: /dev/nvme0n1 vendor: SK Hynix model: PC611 NVMe 512GB
    size: 476.94 GiB temp: 35.9 C
  ID-2: /dev/sda type: USB vendor: Seagate model: BUP Slim size: 1.82 TiB
Partition:
  ID-1: / size: 183.84 GiB used: 126.56 GiB (68.8%) fs: ext4
    dev: /dev/nvme0n1p7
  ID-2: /boot/efi size: 186 MiB used: 104 MiB (55.9%) fs: vfat
    dev: /dev/nvme0n1p1
Swap:
  ID-1: swap-1 type: file size: 2 GiB used: 2 GiB (99.9%) file: /swapfile
Sensors:
  System Temperatures: cpu: 56.0 C pch: 46.0 C mobo: N/A gpu: nvidia
    temp: 52 C
  Fan Speeds (RPM): cpu: 2776 fan-2: 3096
Info:
  Processes: 402 Uptime: 3d 23h 6m Memory: 15.36 GiB used: 12.31 GiB (80.1%)
  Init: systemd runlevel: 5 Compilers: gcc: 11.4.0 Packages: 2944 Shell: Bash
  v: 5.1.16 inxi: 3.3.13

[spamegg]

Unfortunately these issues are mostly part of MATE. Mint does not make MATE, they just use it.

MATE has been declining a bit in popularity and it's not getting the same development efforts / contributions as it used to.

Also MATE is not keeping up with the changes in the Linux desktop environment world (better compositing, new libraries, Wayland, etc.), since the goal is to keep the Gnome 2 style (from early 2000s) going.

Mint created Cinnamon for a similar reason but they follow upstream Gnome more closely to benefit from its improvements to window manager / compositor, and Cinnamon also started work on Wayland.

I think Mint contributed a little bit to MATE in the past but I remember reading something about Clem (Mint lead) and MATE lead having some friction / disagreement. My memory could be wrong and I don't want to be spreading false rumors, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Schultz]

I'm just throwing this out there as I really don't know at all, but you have a fairly new computer. Maybe using a newer kernel would help?? It wouldn't hurt to try.

Also, I don't think Mate itself is the problem. It's got to be something else. I use Mate with no worries, mate (pun intended, yes I know the pronunciation is different). That's one reason why I'm suggesting a newer kernel.

[all41]

The update manager panel icon problem has been reported several times
here on the forums--only when using Compiz. It will operate on the first click only.
Regarding opening position of new windows:
In the Compiz settings/Windows Management enable the 'Place Windows' function.
There are options for how this operates but I use the default 'Smart' placement.

[Hoser Rob]

Compiz is a bug fest. There is no desktop environment that uses it as a default window manager, which should tell you something. I wouldn't touch it.

I always just use the desktop's default window manager anyway. If the default one is so bad that I want to use a different WM, why would I want to be using that DE in the first place? Same with file managers. If I dislike a desktop's FM that much I'll just install a different desktop version.

[writeonmatt]

Hi, my name is Matthew. I got a new laptop for Xmas last year. I opened the box, immediately download a bootable .iso in the latest version for Mint, b/c I have an old comp w/Mint 14 on it and love it. I've been keeping up w/every update, as soon as the orange button appears on my WM icon in the taskbar. I also use MATE. I just wanted something serviceable and simple and didn't worry over installing Cinammon since all the cool graphics would be wasted on me/I don't need anything fancy. Yesterday I did the upgrade from 21.2 to 21.3, and I'm sorry to say I did do not a Timeshift recently enough to simply backdate my computer to a working kernel. Earlier today I noticed the orange button b/c, as I said, I keep up w/all the updates. Now when I select "install updates" my cursor spins, then, instead of requesting my password, the cursor stops spinning and nothing happens. So I googled it today, wondering if the update "Update Manager to 1.2.6" I did more than once this week has caused a problem. I followed the advice (and not blindly) of MrEen on the thread "Re: Update Manager is not working" and ran only the normal "sudo" commands given all the way up to the point where they began discussing the builds of "Tricia" and... "Tina" I think, for LM 19. I saw the problems had been solved, but when I went to the main forum list to ask someone if those instructions would work for LM 21.3, I found this Topic. So, i'm having the same problem w/my GUI update manager not working. When I ran all the "sudo" apt-get and apt-upgrade, it did do all the updates my GUI was saying it needed to do, but now the update for torproject is still there, and cursor is still spinning w/o doing anything. So, friend Quincunx55555, you are not alone. I'm a Capricorn.

[Quincunx55555]

I'm just throwing this out there as I really don't know at all, but you have a fairly new computer. Maybe using a newer kernel would help?? It wouldn't hurt to try.

Also, I don't think Mate itself is the problem. It's got to be something else. I use Mate with no worries, mate (pun intended, yes I know the pronunciation is different). That's one reason why I'm suggesting a newer kernel.

I've had Mint on this computer since I bought it (new), three years ago. I didn't have issues with the task bar disappearing until a few months ago. I haven't messed with the kernel, and always apply all updates (including kernel updates) that Mint provides. The other problems I have described were all encountered after that issue, from following solutions/suggestions that I found during searches.

[Quincunx55555]

Unfortunately these issues are mostly part of MATE. Mint does not make MATE, they just use it.

MATE has been declining a bit in popularity and it's not getting the same development efforts / contributions as it used to.

Also MATE is not keeping up with the changes in the Linux desktop environment world (better compositing, new libraries, Wayland, etc.), since the goal is to keep the Gnome 2 style (from early 2000s) going.

Mint created Cinnamon for a similar reason but they follow upstream Gnome more closely to benefit from its improvements to window manager / compositor, and Cinnamon also started work on Wayland.

I think Mint contributed a little bit to MATE in the past but I remember reading something about Clem (Mint lead) and MATE lead having some friction / disagreement. My memory could be wrong and I don't want to be spreading false rumors, so take it with a grain of salt.

This sounds like a viable course of remedy. I might spend a weekend playing with Cinnamon and Xfce variants of Mint, and maybe a couple other distros. Maybe it's time for me to start playing with VMs.

[Schultz]

If switching to a different desktop fixes the problem, let us know back here. I'm curious. I still doubt that Mate itself is the problem.

[all41]

Regarding op report of random panel visibility:
Also in situations like this try creating a temporary new user in Users and Groups.
Log out and log back in as the new user.
New users get a fresh set of config files. Report if the new user eliminates the
problem or not. Knowing this will help focus suggestions

The new user can always be deleted afterwards.

[billyswong]

Yesterday I did the upgrade from 21.2 to 21.3, and I'm sorry to say I did do not a Timeshift recently enough to simply backdate my computer to a working kernel. Earlier today I noticed the orange button b/c, as I said, I keep up w/all the updates. Now when I select "install updates" my cursor spins, then, instead of requesting my password, the cursor stops spinning and nothing happens.

We are talking about a known bug between Compiz and Update Manager tray icon, where Update Manager can't launch from clicking the tray icon. That bug can be worked around by launching Update Manger from menu (or maybe if one add Update Manager to panel quick launch). You sound like you are facing a different issue here as your failure is about clicking the "install updates" button after the Update Manager dialog has been launched.

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=4629
In tutorials written by Mint developers, every time they remind people to create a Timeshift snapshot before performing upgrade. Sadly there are always people who skip that step

p.s. The ease of tray icon bug workaround is also why nobody really spend effort to investigate what happened and write a fix. In a few years everyone shall be moving on to Wayland, and Compiz will be superseded by Wayfire.

[Wade]

MATE has been declining a bit in popularity and it's not getting the same development efforts / contributions as it used to.

I am afraid this is probably true.

I have been using MATE ever since I changed to Linux Mint from Windows about 8 years ago, but I am about to give up and switch to Cinnamon. There have been no "showstoppers" for me, but just an accumulation of little annoyances and bugs that never get fixed. I have been holding out for a few years, hoping that it would get better, but have not seen much progress. It seems that with every new version of MATE, more trouble is introduced.

I have been experimenting with Cinnamon in a VM over the last few days and have been very pleased. It is much improved since the last time I tinkered with it several years ago.

I am about to install LM 21.3 Cinnamon on my SSD today and, with some sadness, say good-bye to MATE.

[motoryzen]

I am about to install LM 21.3 Cinnamon on my SSD today and, with some sadness, say good-bye to MATE

I can empathize with your points from experience also.

You might find the want to disable Effects when you install Cinnamon. Works pretty well with older hardware and tiny improvement for newer or newest hardware imo. I love things snappy though...never need animations

Here are some things to consider ( always remember. create Timeshift snapshot and/or system image backup using a good software tool like Foxclone first . If whatever you do causes a major problem..restoration is pretty easy )

https://easylinuxtipsproject.blogspot.c ... namon.html 10 things to consider doing first in Cinnamon

speed adjustments --- > https://easylinuxtipsproject.blogspot.c ... -mint.html If I'm not mistake .. forum member ( who's name I keep forgetting how to properly spell. sorry ) pjotr is directly involved in editing these sites.

[Wade]

You might find the want to disable Effects when you install Cinnamon. . . . I love things snappy though...never need animations

I agree with you on animations, and I am not a big fan of sound effects either. I will probably leave both turned on for a few days before shutting them off, just for fun, to see what they are like.

After testing and experimenting for a few days, I can already see how much easier my life is going to be with Cinnamon.

[motoryzen]

Yeah I keep trying mate occasionally but it's still.just buggy like it was 8+ years ago. random crashes regardless of the hardware I run on it.

I love how lean-feeling xfce is . file manager...desktop...etc, but I'll admit. I've become spoiled to how I can launch windows a certain way in Cinnamon and ..but admittedly it has been a few years since I've REALLY cannonballed into Mint XFCE with what I know now involving tools like xdotool and a few others including my experience with bashscripts now.

Cinnamon is and always will be my primary home. I always end up coming back to it

I just wish Clem and the rest of the dev team can solve ONE medium gripe I have ( all of nemo crashing randomly when I toggle the show desktop icons setting off and on. Sometimes that happens for only two or three toggle presses...others it takes 6 or 7 but it inevitably. ALWAYS..crashes all instance of nemo.

[rossdv8]

Compiz is a bug fest. There is no desktop environment that uses it as a default window manager, which should tell you something. I wouldn't touch it.

Now that is just plain 'wrong'!
Compiz, is far fro being 'a bug fest'. Only someone who doesn;t really understand Linux would say that.

If you leave aside its 'special effects', which sadly is the only reason most people know about it, Compiz is one of the oldest and most stable and effective 'Compositing Window Managers' on traditional X11 systems, especially with environemnts like Xfce and Unity in which cases it is a drop in replacement for their Window Managers.
I have installed a linux distro that used 'basic' Compiz by default, but I can;t recall which it was. I have used Compiz, on every gnome based distro I use since, including Mint Xfce and Mint with KDE, and one of the first things I do is download Compiz and Compiz Config Settings Manager. * - I just remembered it was around the time I relaunched one of my yachts after a big rebuild, so it would have been between 2005ish when I hauled out, and 2008ish when we floated off again, and was most likely Ubuntu, or Mint KDE, because by then they were my main distros on machines here - * One of them had Compiz as its Default WM.

Unfortunately Compiz does not play nicely with some of the newer Window managers including Cinnamon's and I can't say regarding whatever Mate uses these days. I do know it does not like Wayland and I have not had a good run with Compiz and Plasma 6 (in x11 mode) over the last few weeks either - so I would think Compiz is 'end of the line' simply bacause of changes in 'other bits of linux'.

That said, I still use Compiz as my Window Manager for my 'Mint 21.3 w/KDE' that I will keep using as long as Mint has an Xfce release and Xfce ships with xfwm4 and Compiz is available.

Like it or not - I don't care. The thing is, it is fast, it works, it is bug-free (for me at least for the past 20 years or so on a huge range of hardware) and I can make it do almost anything I damned well want - within reason).

And, if people don;t want fancy spinny 'cubes' to change their Virtual Desktops - it can still do the simple slidey changey transitions the other Window Managers and compositors copied from Compiz, and some of the window decorations they seem to have acuired from watching Beryl and Emerald.

That you 'wouldn't touch it' should not put anyone else off trying it out.
It will either work for them - or not.
The decision should be whether the underlying WM is tied to a compositor, and If their distro or release is using Xfce, I woudl suggest that 'At the moment' you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain.
If you are using nutter or something else weird - probably it's not for you - I do know using Cinnamon and Compiz is a no-go 'in my experience' as is using KDE's Kwin, or Wayland, partly because Wayland and Kwin have compositing coded in tightly, whereas Xfce4 can use Compiz or Compton to provide compositing.

Kwin had most of the bits of Compiz it needs built in as 'Desktop Effects, or as 'Transitions' anyway, so users of Plasma won;t miss it much.

Either way though, the next year or two will probably see the last of Compiz (although that has been predicted before).

[all41]

(...)
Compiz, is far fro being 'a bug fest'. Only someone who doesn;t really understand Linux would say that.

If you leave aside its 'special effects', which sadly is the only reason most people know about it, Compiz is one of the oldest and most stable and effective 'Compositing Window Managers' on traditional X11 systems, especially with environemnts like Xfce and Unity in which cases it is a drop in replacement for their Window Managers. (...)

Hear Hear. Thanks for this post @rossdv8.
Same here regarding compiz. The benefits of compiz outweigh the few niggles.
I use compiz specifically for window placement and rules features. Not into special effects.
As far as bugs--yes there are a few in Mint. The Update manager icon thing is not a problem
here because I use keyboard shortcuts. I made ctrl+alt+u as the shortcut for Update Manager.
On rare occasions compiz forgets windows decorations are enabled and windows will appear with no
Windows Decorations (no minimize, maximize, or close icons). Perhaps once or twice a month.
I just exit compiz and revert to marco+ and immediately revert back to compiz and the problem is fixed.
I would love if Mint could remember windows placement.

[rossdv8]

Hear Hear. Thanks for this post @rossdv8.
Same here regarding compiz. The benefits of compiz outweigh the few niggles.
I use compiz specifically for window placement and rules features. Not into special effects.
As far as bugs--yes there are a few in Mint. The Update manager icon thing is not a problem
here because I use keyboard shortcuts. I made ctrl+alt+u as the shortcut for Update Manager.
On rare occasions compiz forgets windows decorations are enabled and windows will appear with no
Windows Decorations (no minimize, maximize, or close icons). Perhaps once or twice a month.
I just exit compiz and revert to marco+ and immediately revert back to compiz and the problem is fixed.
I would love if Mint could remember windows placement.

Please don;t take my post as saying Compiz is bug free though. It has its faults - but I have rarely had compiz break because of 'something I did'. break because it is old now, and most hardware is not? Sure, I think - but it has always been easy to fix even if I wasn;t sure what broke it.

I only use the showy effects because I'm OLD, and I don;t play computer games, so I 'play my computer' pushing old hardware as far as I can go. Video wallpaper? Check. Different wallpaper on each Desktop? Check. Some desktops with a picture and some with a slideshow? Check. Do I 'Need' most of these things? NOPE - but this is Linux. We can do it.

Compiz is NOT for everyone. As I understood,it was developed to address functionality that was not available in Linux on the limited graphics hardware that was available in medieval times. With the advances in technology after a couple of World Wars, lots of its components were bled off into Window Managers being developed more specifically for specific projects. Kwin has a heap of Compiz stuff in it, and the KDE guys are not too shy to admit where they got the inspiration. Nutter has stuff that 'probably' does stuff Compiz did well.

However, as mych fun as it is making the most of Compiz, Emerald and Kvantum's Themiing tweaks, it is, as you said, the 'real stuff' that I love about Compiz.
So as has been obvious in my posts this time back in the forum (after an absence of several years when someone pi55ed me off around 2010) I use half a dozen Virtual Desktops.
Compiz makes it easy for me to tell specific Apps which VD I want them to open on every time. So my Multimedia Apps 'always' open on Desktop 4, my VNC Windows into other computers always open on desktop 5, and if I want to have two computers' desktops open at a time on my main one, I can just right click and Move To Desktop # (but hat's NOT a Compiz thing), Mt Browsers know they must open on desktop 1 and my Word processors open on desktop 2.

And Window placement? Most I have Centred, but things like VLC I want opened at the Right side at a size where I can see the video or cover-art window (docked) and a full height playlist. If there's a video playing I want to see, I just do the usual and either double click it, or tell it to fill 'that' desktop. Again that's a function of the App - Not Compiz. but the initial placement - yep, Compiz.

So far - and this is changing gradually as more and more Compiz bits are bleeding off into the real world - Compiz is the only WM that allows me the precision to completely control things like initial Window Placement and Size for every individual App that I want to set. And it makes it relatively easy.

Would I recommend Compiz for everyone for every porpoise? Nope! Is Compiz hard to use? Not for the basic stuff!
Does it still have a place on our Desktops? If you like 'Tweaking stuff' and your Linux distro is still using x.org X11, and is NOT tied in tightly to nutter, like Cinnamon is, or tightly to kwin like the latest Plasma is, maybe.
But it 'is old' and while I think 'buggy' is more relevant to how it fits modern hardware - some of us will squeeze the last drop out of blood out of the poor old stone . .

Would I install it on Mint Cinnamon? Noooo, not me personally - I woud NOT recommend that. I suggest Compiz shoudl be relegated to distros running Xfce, unless you know exactly how to easily repair your Linux.
And a small apology to Hoser, because although I completely disagree with the idea that Compiz is full of bugs, there are 'some situations' where I wouldn;t touch it either.

For examply it play perfectly on my Mint 21.3 w/KDE (Plasma 5.9(something)) as a drop in replacement for kwin - but I had no success switching to Compiz instead of kwin on Plasma 6 (and now 6.1) over the last few weeks.

But I'm having fun discovering just how 'not ready' wayland is - so there's that . .