Confusion .... What don't I understand ?

[Hoser Rob]

... I have been in and out of Linux for a couple decades now, but always went back to Windows because the things I wanted to do were a lot easier there...

... This may not go over well, but I pretty much use my Linux box as a Chromebox except running Firefox. I have zero user-created files on my Linux box, I do not use any Linux productivity apps whatsoever. Although they are inferior to the desktop apps, I can get by pretty well with the Microsoft Office online apps. All my user-created files are on OneDrive.

The photo processing software is more of a problem. I have used DarkTable and RawTherapee, and could get by with DarkTable, but I find the user interface lacking compared with the commercial app I use in Windows. GIMP, no, never. I could tolerate learning the workflow, but it does not enable non-destructive edits, and might never. Although a simple version of TurboTax is available online, it is not capable of doing what I need. So, at the very least I have to use Windows for those apps....

That's kind of the elephant in the room, isn't it? Many of the most popular Windows programs do not run in Linux, and there's no real Linux alternative.

Just one example, GIMP is simply not a substitute for Photoshop if you're a professional. It not only doesn't support the commonly used file format it doesn't even have Pantone support! All those politically charged arguments about corporatism Linux people make about this issue are just irrelevant because it's still Linux's problem.

Note: I have no Windows installed and haven't for years. I don;t need it personally but a lot of users do.

[caerolle]

I have been in and out of Linux for a couple decades now, but always went back to Windows because the things I wanted to do were a lot easier there.

Your obviously not the type of person whose confusing me !!!
Your not trying to make MS programs run on a Linux system. You’ve chosen to stick with Windows for some of your needs. I can definitely understand that.
I’m currently using OneDrive to sync my documents folder with 3 laptops.
Replacing the cloud service has been the biggest challenge I’ve encountered thus far with my switch to Linux. Finding a localized solution that works for me hasn’t been easy.


Thanks for your time
Newbie221

Yes, sorry, I was just trying to support you and to add to the general conversation about Linux vs Windows and the complications of completely moving from Windows to Linux.

caerolle

[caerolle]

... I have been in and out of Linux for a couple decades now, but always went back to Windows because the things I wanted to do were a lot easier there...

... This may not go over well, but I pretty much use my Linux box as a Chromebox except running Firefox. I have zero user-created files on my Linux box, I do not use any Linux productivity apps whatsoever. Although they are inferior to the desktop apps, I can get by pretty well with the Microsoft Office online apps. All my user-created files are on OneDrive.

The photo processing software is more of a problem. I have used DarkTable and RawTherapee, and could get by with DarkTable, but I find the user interface lacking compared with the commercial app I use in Windows. GIMP, no, never. I could tolerate learning the workflow, but it does not enable non-destructive edits, and might never. Although a simple version of TurboTax is available online, it is not capable of doing what I need. So, at the very least I have to use Windows for those apps....

That's kind of the elephant in the room, isn't it? Many of the most popular Windows programs do not run in Linux, and there's no real Linux alternative.

Just one example, GIMP is simply not a substitute for Photoshop if you're a professional. It not only doesn't support the commonly used file format it doesn't even have Pantone support! All those politically charged arguments about corporatism Linux people make about this issue are just irrelevant because it's still Linux's problem.

Note: I have no Windows installed and haven't for years. I don;t need it personally but a lot of users do.

Yes, for sure. If I could get like 5 Windows apps, or something that was essentially them, I would probably use Linux only. But after a long time I have just accepted that is the way things are; Adobe and Microsoft and other corps that make the widely used, captive consumer software will never bother with Linux, esp given the culture of FOSS. I am NOT criticizing the FOSS culture, obviously for a lot of people's needs are met just fine. I do feel that approach requires some to a lot of hoop jumping, though, and that Linux will never really grow that much in its current form. The OS is there, esp with distros like Mint, but the lack of the commercial software will always limit it IMO.

[Hoser Rob]

This is always a good read: https://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

That article may be almost 20 years old but it's still perfectly relevant.\

Esp the bit where he talks about how FOSS software, including Linux of course, is basically programmers who are writing software that they themselves want to use. That hits the proverbial nail right on the head. It's why Linux is so geeky.

[spamegg]

This is always a good read: https://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

That article may be almost 20 years old but it's still perfectly relevant.\

Esp the bit where he talks about how FOSS software, including Linux of course, is basically programmers who are writing software that they themselves want to use. That hits the proverbial nail right on the head. It's why Linux is so geeky.

The more things "change", the more they stay the same

Yeah, most FOSS software is written out of personal necessity or taste / preference.
Even the kernel was started because Linus needed a Unix-like OS for his own 386 machine.
There was nothing available so he wrote his own.

That's why it's not a good idea to have the "mindless passive consumer mentality" when you use Linux.
Can't expect Windows / Mac kind of service.
You gotta adjust your expectations...

[wwblm]

The more things "change", the more they stay the same

Yeah, most FOSS software is written out of personal necessity or taste / preference.
Even the kernel was started because Linus needed a Unix-like OS for his own 386 machine.
There was nothing available so he wrote his own.

That's why it's not a good idea to have the "mindless passive consumer mentality" when you use Linux.
Can't expect Windows / Mac kind of service.
You gotta adjust your expectations...

Perhaps it is true that I am more of a geek than I think I am. However, I do think that times have changed for Linux and Mint in particular. While it is certainly true that there are some programs that are only available for Windows or Mac and some people truly need those programs, it is also true that there are a whole bunch of people who do not need those software programs. There are a whole bunch of people who can use Linux Mint and just do the things they want to do with a computer with less stress and effort than they would experience by using the mainstream OS.

[Newbie221]

However, I do think that times have changed for Linux and Mint in particular. While it is certainly true that there are some programs that are only available for Windows or Mac and some people truly need those programs, it is also true that there are a whole bunch of people who do not need those software programs. There are a whole bunch of people who can use Linux Mint and just do the things they want to do with a computer with less stress and effort than they would experience by using the mainstream OS.

I completely agree !!!

I personally believe market share could grow vastly if there was a marketing campaign behind a chosen distro. Mint would be perfect in my opinion.
I however understand why the Linux community would be against this, but I see it as a lost opportunity. Education is the key. A lot of people are clueless about what Linux has to offer.


Thanks for your time
Newbie221

[haanpm]

My Confusion;
While doing research on what programs I want to run on my "new" laptop, I keep coming across tech related articles and videos of how to use/run Google and Microsoft apps and software.
I thought the whole idea was to break away from these companies. Hence my confusion.

You are absolutely right. On a general level, I think too it’s not a good idea to install Linux for Windows or Google apps. I don’t entirely agree with some opinions that Linux lacks equivalents to software found on other operating systems. Because there are apps for everything. Of course, it depends on the specific programs you typically use and do you maybe use some special commercial software for living (this can make things little more complicated).

I think the biggest work is in finding, testing and learning Linux alternatives for the software you’re accustomed to using. However, once you complete this project, the satisfaction is rewarding. You’ve transitioned your workflow to a new platform that, in my opinion, is much more transparent and less driven by commercial interests. The challenge with Linux is that it’s different, so there’s a learning curve with os and new software. It’s not a problem, but it does require patience. That’s why I believe a good level of enthusiasm and interest in the subject is necessary. I don't believe that a person with very little or no interest in computers can do this by himself.

[rickNS]

Unfortunately many users try to replicate their Windows / Mac experience on Linux.
Often they are not motivated by a genuine privacy concern, more of a vague negative feeling against Microsoft / Apple.
But they don't want to part with their favorite "professional polished software from a big corporation".
Even if the software has an equal / better Linux equivalent that's an easy replacement.
It's a strange phenomenon, where they both love and hate the corporation at the same time.
Humans are weird and self-contradictory! They have always been.
Don't think too hard or be confused about it. Humans just being humans.

Very well said.
Where you say "Humans are weird and self-contradictory! ", I say they speak out of "both sides of their mouths". (same thing).

We so often see people state I can not get rid of windows "I need program x", BUT rarely do they share what program X is ?? It makes me question do they actually want their program problem solved, or are they actually afraid to have a Linux solution, because then they would have no excuse for suckling at the MSnipple ? Which is the actual reason they can not (will not) give it up ?

I left MS over a decade ago, I was running my own small business at the time, and I needed to create images for the website, I blocked some time to learn enough GIMP to get by on , and the rest is history, no excuses.

[spamegg]

We so often see people state I can not get rid of windows "I need program x", BUT rarely do they share what program X is ?? It makes me question do they actually want their program problem solved, or are they actually afraid to have a Linux solution, because then they would have no excuse for suckling at the MSnipple ? Which is the actual reason they can not (will not) give it up ?

Yeah exactly, It's just weird human psychology, I don't get it either.

Paying money to Microsoft / Apple makes them feel more secure about their self-image, or something? It's like flaunting your wealth with expensive clothes or a car that you don't need. These days, having the latest Iphone is a status symbol isn't it?

One theory I have is that, since we are social animals, we want to be associated with "things / people with high social status".
Like how people get imitation watches / sneakers of "name brands" or imitate celebrities' looks.
So maybe Microsoft / Apple / Windows / Mac is like that.
On the other hand, I guess Linux does not look "expensive" or "shiny" or "sexy" enough.
So maybe they don't want to be associated with what's considered "for people with low social status" (nerds, poor people etc.), or something.
If there is a perfect Linux equivalent, then as you said, they won't have an excuse to keep sucking to MS / Apple and have to say goodbye to their perceived status.

I remember reading about IBM's concerns for getting into the PC market initially in 1981.
They thought that making something that is seen as a "gaming device for kids" would hurt their "serious company" reputation in the business world. Even though their home / business products were completely separate.

Similarly there are people who refuse to use Discord for online collaboration / coding / work, and insist on Slack; because apparently Discord's image is "associated with gamers" and Slack's image is "associated with serious business people". Even though Slack deletes all your messages in 90 days and you have to pay to keep them. They even argue that it's better to pay because it's "more professional".

There was a similar thing about how young people refused to use Skype and insisted on using extremely unsafe and broken Zoom with a ton of known security issues / hacking; because "Skype is for old people" and "cool kids only use Zoom".

If you think this social status / association stuff does not apply to software, just think about how icon themes changed over the last 10-15 years, where everyone started imitating Mac's flat icons. Now it's impossible to find non-flat icons. If it's not flat, it's not considered "modern and professional".

Anyway whatever

[Newbie221]

Ahhhh the human psyche......... perhaps it's best for me not to go on a rant about that here.



Thanks for your time
Newbie221

[MurphCID]

Well, I will be specific why I keep Windows around:

Photoshop- Can't live without it. GIMP just does not cut it.

iTunes- Gotta have it since so much of my music is either purchased from them, or ripped from my CD's. Plus movies and TV shows.

Turbo Tax- Gotta pay the Tax Man. Turbo Tax makes it less maddening (slightly).

Gaming- Sorry Linux gaming is no where near ready to really work.

So I am specific about what I need Windows for. I could transition to Mac for most of these, but again, I come back to Gaming.

[Hoser Rob]

... I don’t entirely agree with some opinions that Linux lacks equivalents to software found on other operating systems. Because there are apps for everything. ...

But they aren't necessarily useable. No real professional (as opposed to web posers) would ever use Gimp instead of Photoshop. That's just one example.

[caerolle]

Well, I will be specific why I keep Windows around:

Photoshop- Can't live without it. GIMP just does not cut it.

iTunes- Gotta have it since so much of my music is either purchased from them, or ripped from my CD's. Plus movies and TV shows.

Turbo Tax- Gotta pay the Tax Man. Turbo Tax makes it less maddening (slightly).

Gaming- Sorry Linux gaming is no where near ready to really work.

So I am specific about what I need Windows for. I could transition to Mac for most of these, but again, I come back to Gaming.

100%

I did the same earlier in the thread. I have a couple 'have-to-have' Windows apps (raw developer and image editor, tax prep app) and quite a lot of 'use a lot but could do without if I had to apps (Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote, OneDrive, Google Drive, 1Password, iCloud/iCloud Photos, Kindle, Apple Music, and probably others I am forgetting).

I just switched back over to my huge Windows machine yesterday to do some photo processing, and really, Windows meets my needs really well. I prefer Linux for a lot of reasons, some philosophical and some in terms of look and usability, but I will always need Windows for the foreseeable future. Perhaps as I get even older I will not do photo processing, and pretty much just use a browser, in which case Linux would mostly work (still will need to prepare taxes, though, and until some online app does what I need, I am stuck with Windows desktops apps), but for now that is just how it is.

[caerolle]

... I don’t entirely agree with some opinions that Linux lacks equivalents to software found on other operating systems. Because there are apps for everything. ...

But they aren't necessarily useable. No real professional (as opposed to web posers) would ever use Gimp instead of Photoshop. That's just one example.

I am just a hobbyist and honestly if GIMP was my only option for image processing I like would just do some really basic things, and no photo processing. I don't even have to deal with Adobe, I use something called Affinity Photo which is like $50 for the app, no subscription needed. You still get point upgrades and only have to pay for version upgrades, which are several years apart. Love it.

[RollyShed]

Paying money to Microsoft / Apple makes them feel more secure about their self-image, or something? It's like flaunting your wealth with expensive clothes or a car that you don't need. These days, having the latest Iphone is a status symbol isn't it?

So what happens to someone who's phone does work only as a phone, just but the torch has failed. It has real buttons to press and does the required job. Surprisingly the radio bit does work.

Has used Linux for a decade at least, and photo editing for monthly publications can be easily done with things such as gThumb or Pix.

Is reasonably technically competent (has been called in by NASA a couple of times). Vehicle, a van as that makes taking the green rubbish to the dump easy and can be camped/slept in. Usual vehicle a bicycle with the longest ride 3,500 km up the Californian coast a few decades ago.

Tax, poked at the tax department until they rewrote their website so it actually works. Paid staff who couldn't do it properly while unpaid and untaught people could set up websites that worked.

Do I have to impress anyone? Not that I can think of.

It would appear that those who try to impress people, can't do "it" while those who can do "it" don't need to try and be impressionable.

[Samarian Sunset]

I never understood why one person would care how another person uses their computer. We're all individuals with varying reasons for using Linux. Just reading through this thread, I see people have very different needs and philosophies regarding their computers and Linux. Me personally, I use Linux Mint because it works, it works on my 15 year old desktop, it's intuitive and a corporation doesn't make me sign an EULA saying they own the OS. I got a real sense of satisfaction scraping the Windows serial tag off my computer box when I finally deleted Windows out of the house. I do use one 'Windows' program Photoshop 7. It's 22 year old software but I own the CD so can reinstall it on my computer, I use it under Wine. I've used it nearly daily for two decades.

[TaterChip]

Hello Newbie221, and welcome to Linux Mint and to the Forum.

Some Windows apps have no worthy Linux replacement. Some Linux users are required to use certain specific applications for work. Some Linux users have a strong motivation to continue using a particular Windows app. I have about 20 years of financial data in Quicken 2012, and even if I determined to switch to a Linux-native bookkeeping program, I have tried most of them and I don't like the workflow.

For these and other reasons, a Linux user might want or need to run a Windows application. That's where dual-booting, Wine, and Virtual Machines come in. I prefer VMs myself, so when I need to use Quicken, I launch my Windows 10 VM, take care of business, and shut it down. I would prefer a Linux-native solution, but Intuit doesn't seem interested.

Then there are games....

I moved a buttload of financial data from MS Money into KMyMoney. Have you checked out that program yet? I think I just had to export with a QIF file

[TaterChip]

Also developers can decide to "improve" (remove) features you liked and used for years, or make breaking changes often (lack of backwards compatibility).

This has happened twice to me in less than six months, so it is definitely a thing.

[Newbie221]

I never understood why one person would care how another person uses their computer.

I'm not concerned as to how one implements a tool, I'm just trying to figure out why they're not using the one that's better suited to their needs.
Software packages that have been built and optimized around a particular OS work best in their native environments. If I were in a situation that forced me to use such software, I'd still be using the associated OS. I would however at this point be stripping all my personal attachments from it and moving them to a Linux system.


Thanks for your time
Newbie221